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Legacy league - Match #12 - VOTE to see who advances to Semi-Finals!!! (Axel ...

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  • Miekenstien
    replied
    congratulations wheazy

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  • Axel
    replied
    Legacy league - Match #12 - VOTE to see who advances to Semi-Finals!!! (Axel ...

    Good match. Bans for those who voted incorrectly will be issued shortly.

    Love Bobloblaw's assessments the best so far (even though he voted against me). Very detailed, very well thought out.

    Some shoulda coulda woulda's left on the table (finding space to talk about the bench's role is tough, and my bench is good), both overall no complaints.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miekenstien
    replied
    This one came down to stopping power for me and e_wheazy has the defenders to get some stops. I don't think either team can really stop the other because these are two fire-power heavy teams, I just think wheaz is going to be able to get that one or two extra he needs.

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  • Cody73
    replied
    This took me ages to go over, but I finally have a winner in my head: Wheezy.



    Congrats Mister 16.

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  • BobLoblaw
    replied
    What a great matchup.

    I think Team Axel is more talented. I think it can at least be argued that he has an equal or better talent at every position, if we count players on the bench. IMO, Oscar is much better than Stockton, I think Stockton is a bit overrated because of longevity, while I think Oscar is great, great shooter, great at directing the team, great penetrating, great passing in tight spaces, very good defense, no weak spots. Manu is better than Reggie, I'd guess Gervin too (but I just haven't seen Gervin enough to have a strong opinion about him). Peja at his peak was a legit MVP candidate, he's better than Kawhi. McHale vs. Malone is debatable, individual achievement wise Malone is better and he's usually ranked higher, but McHale was fantastic, and it's debatable. Sabonis and Dwight, who really knows, but I think it's arguable, I think prime Sabonis is probably better than Yao, who was comparable to Dwight and a tough matchup for Dwight.

    Great gameplans from both, especially defensively. I like Team Axel's focus on Stockton defensively, I agree, Team e_wheazy relies on Stockton too much. My worry would be, how much can Oscar hinder Stockton alone? Oscar was a very good defender IMO, but you need good help defense to really bother good point guards, and I just don't see much of it from Glen Rice, Stojakovic, Amar'e and Sabonis. That will be an even bigger problem against Rose IMO.

    I also love Kawhi on Oscar. Not that I think Kawhi can stop Oscar or prevent passing, Oscar is too great, but it's a good defender to put on him. If it was Stockton on Oscar, I think Oscar would have a big mismatch, I think he'd be able to get past Stockton or shoot over him. In general, great defensive write up by e_wheazy.

    Mismatches. Both teams have them. Team Axel's wings will still be very hard to defend for Team e_wheazy with Stockton and Reggie, and I think Sabonis could be a problem for Dwight in the post.

    But I think Team e_wheazy has bigger mismatches here. No one in Team Axel's starting lineup is good enough to keep up with Reggie, Amar'e plays little defense and it will a problem against Malone. Sabonis is a solid man defender and protects the rim, but I don't consider him an elite defender, so I think Team Axel's inside defense with Amar'e / Sabonis is pretty weak and will have issues with Dwight, Malone and Leonard exploding to the rim and especially in transition. I think transition defense is a problem.

    Overall I think Amar'e starting next to Sabonis makes some sense, an explosive pick and roll big as opposed to McHale whose bread and butter is the same as Sabonis's (post ups). But I think McHale is better, and with him and Sabonis being able to shoot, it was a fine fit. McHale would give way more defense than Amar'e. I think McHale would also be a bigger problem for Malone offensively, Malone had power and mobility to match up with Amar'e ok, what he didn't have was length, Malone had T-Rex arms, I think a long and super skilled player like McHale would be a problem for Malone in the paint.

    Anyway, a great matchup, so many mismatches and great gameplans. I'm picking Team e_wheazy, I think they have less talent, but I think mismatches make up for it, and I think their gameplan defensively should work better, because they have the defensive personnel for it.
    Last edited by BobLoblaw; Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:56 AM.

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  • jerome
    replied
    I really like Axel's team with two great play-maker and scorers in Oscar and Sabonis, and surrounded them with good shooters. I think it would work really well. Unfortunately the shooters aren't known for their defense.

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  • Apollo
    replied
    I think I would have started Manu on Reggie. I think Manu could have used a little more love in the game planning.

    I'm surprised that the voting isn't closer. I think it's not as clear cut as the voting would show.

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  • planetmars
    replied
    I like both teams.. this is really a toss up for me, but going to go with Axel as that is what I was leaning towards yesterday anyway.

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  • JimiCliff
    replied
    This one's a tough call, but Axel beat me last round, so I'm voting Wheazhy.

    But seriously: offensively, these squads have similar overall firepower, with the edge going slightly towards Axel. Defensively though, Wheazhy has a much more pronounced advantage, especially with Amare in the starting lineup. That tips it for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • thead
    replied
    I just imagined Stockton running endless pick n rolls with Malone and Howard, and using Reggie Miller as the release valve if the paint gets crowded

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  • Mack North
    replied
    The length of some of these "sentences"! ha

    This one is almost eeny-meeny-miny-mo... tough choice between two excellent squads.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snooch
    replied
    Axel has this for a couple of reasons.

    First, Oscar. I like Stockton and he was a very solid defender, but he will never be able to stop Oscar, and Kawhi is a great defender, but I do not see how he can keep up with Oscar for an entire game.

    Then there is Sabonis who howard would never, ever be able to guard, remember Bargnani going off multiple times against howard? How would one of the most skilled bigmen in all of history far? Incredibly well.

    And Malone, While another great defender, I do not think he could match the Speed that a prime Amare carried on his rolls to the rim, and also Amares jumping ability. Malone was built for strength and banging, he was never great against fast athletic PFs as evidenced by guys like Kemp.

    And Mchale and the iceman and Manu off the bench?

    And LAstly, I think Ewhezy has really been stretching the 10 sentence, 5 sentence rule.....

    So My Vote goes to Axel, and I question as to why is is trailing so far, dont vote for name recognitions and vote for team construction people.....

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  • e_wheazhy_
    replied
    Legacy league - Match #12 - VOTE to see who advances to Semi-Finals!!! (Axel ...

    Axel wrote: View Post

    By anticipating Leonard covering Oscar, our team half court offence flows seamlessly through the 7'4 Sabonis in the high post by drawing the only rim protector away from the hoop and forcing help defenders to leave lethal scorers open for a Sabonis bullet pass.
    Aside from the fact Dwight isn't the only rim protector, and that you're exaggerating heights (you yourself have said different heights for your own players...Peja isn't 6'10, Sabonis wasn't 7'4...), your wing scorers aren't lethal enough to cause my guys problems other than 3 point shooting - which is exactly where my defenders will be waiting to grab steals.

    Axel wrote: View Post
    [Sabonis, who has no stamina issues with his prime playing weight of between 270-280 lbs (based on Olympics) has size, skill and athleticism that no one can match, as evidenced by his NBA.com...
    Highlight videos show highlights, he wasn't a transcendent player by any means, and even with no stamina issues, he was a heavy, tall guy, meaning he's a slow mover, so you can't say that no one would match - not to mention, if he's 270-280, Dwight Howard, who's listed as 275 by NBA.com (the very site you referenced) doesn't give up any significant weight when guarding him.

    Axel wrote: View Post
    Our offence will play at a high tempo pushing the ball early to force the defence to scramble to find their 3 man switched assignments (Leonard to scramble away from his cover (Stojakovic) to locate Oscar, while Miller scrambles from Rice (6'7) to Stojakovic and Stockton scrambles from Oscar (6'5) to Rice), which will inevitably break down leading to easy baskets in transition and open looks from the perimeter.
    My guys don't have to scramble to find their covers - they're already covering them, with Reggie and Stockton glued to those slow dudes on the perimeter interchangeably (we don't have to block their shots, just contest, which already reduces efficiency) - this is not to mention that my guys are way faster than his, meaning even if we do scramble, we have quick and smart enough defenders to recover in time.

    Axel wrote: View Post
    Defensively, our size advantage will negate Stockton's passing lanes, Malone's post position and Howard's ability to use power moves (giving up between 30-40lbs according to BBRef), forcing unnatural playmakers like Miller, Leonard, and Worthy to either assume that role or play ISO heavy offence. With neither Howard or Malone possessing much shooting range, the 7'4 Sabonis will be free to protect the rim with Amar'e and McHale as weak side rebounders for quick outlet to Oscar/Manu.
    Vastly underrating our playmakers, and there's no one on your team that can root the 260 pound Malone out of the low block(outside of Sabonis who's already guarding someone else), but exaggeration is a valid strategy when trying to win at all costs - you're also completely discounting the fact that, unlike a Dwane Casey ran team, we actually have an offense: you don't need playmakers to execute a triangle or motion offense, you need smart, unselfish, speedy and quick thinking players to execute and move the ball to find the best shots - not a hard task against a slow and weak defensive team; we also have the option of going "big" with Malone abusing Peja physically (and since Peja is already slow, he's not giving up any speed on that matchup), Lanier taking care of whoever is at PF interchangeably with Dwight, giving us 3 rim protectors and negating any "size advantage".


    Guys don't fall into the trap of looking at a gold name/high post counts and taking words as fact, although Axel is a very smart and knowledgeable guy, his team is just plain and simply worse than mine:

    - they have slow wings who are sieves on defense and on offense only serve to shoot threes (which they won't make at their normal clip since they're facing stellar defenders who are glued to them);

    - they have unathletic big men who (aside from McHale, who was light for a post guy) will be abused by my big men's superior athleticism, speed and defense;

    -their best playmaker is negated by Kawhi, and their main big man plays on the perimeter, with his high dribble-drives to the rim being stolen by the all time steals leader in NBA history
    Last edited by e_wheazhy_; Thu Aug 20, 2015, 11:59 PM.

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  • BS10
    replied
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Wheazy has a nearly perfectly constructed team.

    Pass-first PG, who's the all-time leader in assists and steals.

    One of the best and most clutch 3pt shooters of all time.

    A well-rounded lock-down perimeter defender, who can also knock down a 3pt shot.

    One of the best, prototypical traditional PFs of all time, who can pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop, playing alongside the PG with whom he has unparalleled chemistry.

    One of the best, prototypical rim protectors of all time.


    I love the way this team is built, with an ability to pound it inside, light it up from outside, or run a 2-man game from the high corner post. Great versatility with fantastic point-of-attack defense, with one of the best defensive anchors waiting behind the quality first line of defense.

    Nothing against Axel's team, but Wheazy's team is exactly how I would attempt to build a team.
    Yea, I agree, you sold me. I think Wheazy has the better talent at each position. Each of his starters are extremely well rounded and versatile.

    Axel does have a good strategy with the design of his roster but I don't think he can pull it off on this one because of the level of talent he's facing in this round. Everyone on Wheazy's starting line up is elite to me.
    Last edited by BS10; Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:37 AM.

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  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    Wheazy has a nearly perfectly constructed team.

    Pass-first PG, who's the all-time leader in assists and steals.

    One of the best and most clutch 3pt shooters of all time.

    A well-rounded lock-down perimeter defender, who can also knock down a 3pt shot.

    One of the best, prototypical traditional PFs of all time, who can pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop, playing alongside the PG with whom he has unparalleled chemistry.

    One of the best, prototypical rim protectors of all time.


    I love the way this team is built, with an ability to pound it inside, light it up from outside, or run a 2-man game from the high corner post. Great versatility with fantastic point-of-attack defense, with one of the best defensive anchors waiting behind the quality first line of defense.

    Nothing against Axel's team, but Wheazy's team is exactly how I would attempt to build a team.

    Leave a comment:

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