Article: Ujiri Resting Heavily On Maintaining The Status Quo

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Honestly, it seems to me that some of you will expend significant energy in proving it just can't be done with DD.

But are happy to come up with cheap options (Gerald Henderson) to replace DD.

I like JV. But we might find we have cheap options among our prospects ... or might sign somebody for the front court with our picks. What if KD wants to come play with DeMar? And if KD is coming, maybe we get someone inexpensive and serviceable for T-Ross .... or Bruno. Or Powell. Or Delon.

But I think it is fair to point out that some are so down on DeMar that nothing but scorn is poured upon the head of anyone who is interested in keeping him. Even though it seems there is a chance that KD might only come to play with KL/DD and some others (to be named later).

I don't know that this is so. But I don't know that this is not so. But I don't think you can blame me for the narrowness of this discussion. Or blame me (solely, anyway) for its chippiness. That all got started long before arrived, right?

With regards to the bold, as well as the poster(s) who floated that sort of idea, it was never a simple 1-for-1 suggestion.

Part 1: replace DD with a cheaper option

Part 2: use cap space created by going with cheaper option to upgrade another position(s)

It's a domino-effect type of move, pointing out the discrepancy between the true value that DeRozan adds (per the advanced stats, which are certainly not a be-all-and-end-all of player evaluation) and the size of contract he's likely going to demand (I'd be thrilled if he took a Duncan-like team-first approach to his salary and picked-up his player option, but I'd also like being able to turn invisible or fly).

It's also about the complimentary fit that a 3&D wing would more likely resemble next to a true #1 player like Durant, as opposed to another one-dimensional (and statistically inefficient) scoring wing, which a true #1 would at least somewhat make redundant (max or near max salary is a lot to play for a somewhat redundant, less than ideal complimentary player).

[golden]

Maybe Axel already covered it, but I think we need DanH or some capologist get specific on a realistic scenario where DD is a lead recruiter for Durant, with KD getting max salary and KD also requiring DD to be on the team. Is this possible, and what does DD's salary and the rest of the Raps team look like?

I have no problem over-paying DD, if that's the package deal cost of getting KD, since KD is worth way more than the max. You can always trade DD later (ala Chandler Parsons) after locking up KD long term.

[Snooch]

no one has ever said there was no other way to get it done, only there is one most logical way to do so.

There is no "most logical" way to do anything. Something is either logical or it isn't.

Similarly, while it's unlikely that a coin will turn up "heads" 100 times in a row, it's possible. These statements are mis-applied renderings of logic and probability. They're false.

yet again a post where you tell people there are wrong, but add nothing to support said claims and instead counter with an argument based on grammar,

I was trying to be nice when I stated there was a most logical way to do this deal, I know there is only logical and illogical, your way is entirely, completely and utterly illogical, improbably, and entirely moronic. Better? or do you prefer my original response.

You called my ideas "entirely moronic", Snooch. In writing. Above. Maybe it shouldn't be there ... but it is.

Da Rules as laid out by the Doc
THE "DO NOT" RULES:

* DO NOT make personal attacks (name calling, hostile remarks, accusations, etc.). In discussion, attack ideas and opinions, not the people who hold them. Note that an attack on your ideas and beliefs are not considered a personal attack under our rules even if you identify so closely with your beliefs and ideas that you personally consider an attack on those beliefs or ideas to be an attack on you.

[Wild-ling#1]

Honestly, it seems to me that some of you will expend significant energy in proving it just can't be done with DD.

But are happy to come up with cheap options (Gerald Henderson) to replace DD.

I like JV. But we might find we have cheap options among our prospects ... or might sign somebody for the front court with our picks. What if KD wants to come play with DeMar? And if KD is coming, maybe we get someone inexpensive and serviceable for T-Ross .... or Bruno. Or Powell. Or Delon.

But I think it is fair to point out that some are so down on DeMar that nothing but scorn is poured upon the head of anyone who is interested in keeping him. Even though it seems there is a chance that KD might only come to play with KL/DD and some others (to be named later).

I don't know that this is so. But I don't know that this is not so. But I don't think you can blame me for the narrowness of this discussion. Or blame me (solely, anyway) for its chippiness. That all got started long before arrived, right?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I'm not sure why there are any arguments going on about whether or not trading/releasing DeRozan is the only option for being able to sign Durant, when there have been multiple posts explaining the various options. planetmars did a great job initially, which McHappy expanded on in post #401 of the salary cap thread.

To summarize:

In any scenario (that minimizes number of players removed from the roster, especially top-tier players), every expiring contract must be released - Johnson, Ross, Scola, whoever the 15th man is (if signed & assuming he's only signed to a 1-year contract).

Notes
- 1st round picks have cap space attached to them, the value of which is dependent on the slot (Raptors have 2 1st round picks in 2016)
- for cap calculations, the team must have at least 12 slots accounted for; if so many players are traded/released that less than 11 are still on the roster (since KD would become the 12th), cap space is added to account for the empty slots
- Biyombo would need to be traded if he picks up his player option (or Bebe could be released/traded), for no guaranteed salary in return

Option 1 - release DeRozan (or trade for no guaranteed salary)

Option 2 - trade Valanciunas for no/minimal guaranteed salary

Option 3 - trade Carroll for no/minimal guaranteed salary

Option 4 - trade Lowry & filler (would likely need to be either Joseph or Patterson, or Biyombo/Bebe and 1st round pick or two) for no guaranteed salary

Option 5 - trade Joseph & Patterson & filler (likely most/all minimum salaries and/or 1st rounds picks, due to added salary that all the empty roster slots would add back) for no guaranteed salary


When you consider the following, there's clearly logical, objective rationale for DeRozan being the most likely option:

- only option that requires only a release, as opposed to one/multiple lopsided trades

- trading significant salary for no salary in return is always hard, but especially so when teams know why you're doing it and will hold you hostage to drive up the cost even more (ie: 1st round picks and future 1st round picks)

- unlikely that MU trades Valanciunas or Carroll, because their recent [re]signings seem to indicate that they are MU's guys

- Carroll (3&D wing capable of guarding PF/SF/SG spots) would seem to be an ideal fit alongside KD on the wing

- completely gutting the team's depth, while leaving them capped out, doesn't seem like an ideal (or MU-style) approach to team-building

- KD is essentially an all-around better, more efficient version of DeRozan (scoring wing), meaning his position (role) is the most obvious to be replaced straight-up by the acquisition of KD


* I will say that I could see Lowry as a likely #1b type option, given his age, injury/longevity concerns, positional depth (Joseph & Wright), and contract status (1 additional guaranteed season, followed by a player-option for the 17-18 season). Having said that, Lowry's contract could also allow the Raptors to add another max player in 2017, so the likelihood of dumping Lowry to lure KD (1 max player opposed to 2 max players, over the next two offseasons) takes a bit of a hit when thinking longer-term.

[planetmars]

The Spurs didn't play it safe. They traded Splitter the day before LMA committed to the Spurs (who was also interested in the Suns who just landed Chandler). They had to trade Splitter to Atlanta for cap space.

Tim Duncan had to take a pay cut (again). His cap hold was about $15M but decided to take a $6M deal so that they could shave $9M off his hold. Manu came back for the room exception (about $2.5M). Cutting his cap hold from $10.5M to 0 (essentially).

KL got the max but his cap hold was only $7M as he was coming off a rookie scale contract. So they could keep his cap hold on the books and extend him after they signed Aldridge.

Danny Green signed back for $10M a year, about $3M more than his cap hold of just $7M. So they kept his cap hold on the books to save $3M until after LMA was signed.

Corey Joseph was an RFA with a cap hold of only $5M. His contract could be matched but it was easier to let him go and save the $5M.

Would DD take a pay cut to shave his $15M cap hold? Because that's what you'd have to ask him to do. If you renounce him, you'd need cap space to resign him - something the Raptors may not have if they are chasing KD. Would DD do what Tim or Manu did? That's asking a lot for a guy that's not about to retire. Would Masai trade Lowry or Carroll (with other assets) like the Spurs did with Splitter? Seems risky for a guy that usually is risk averse.

San Antonio traded Splitter so that they can move in on LMA without having to do any kind of S&T (that will make it more difficult for them to compete with teams like Phoenix). So they didn't wait until LMA essentially signed on the dotted line. They took a risk.. a pretty big risk actually.

Raptors can hold on to DD but if KD is taking his time (and he probably will), another team can come in and scoop DD as he's not going to be waiting around forever. Tyson Chandler didn't want to wait for Dallas to get their ducks in a row, and got scooped by Phoenix.

I think the easiest thing to do is to talk to KD.. convince him TO is the place to be. Get Drake to smoke a joint with him. But if someone scoops up DD while Toronto is busy talking.. let them. It happened with Amir and with Lou... and with Tyson in Dallas. DD will want to take care of himself before the Raptors get their ducks in a row.. I know if I was him I would. I suspect LAL will snatch him. Seems like a good fit.

[Axel]

Do you mean you don't know? Or are you saying it can't be done?

Can we not sign KD and then go into the luxury tax to extend DeMar?

No we can't. We need to renounce DD to have the cap space. By renouncing DD we no longer have the ability to go over the cap to sign DD. That's the whole point of renouncing.

Now if you want to make trades to make the cap space outside of DD's cap hold, then yes, you can resign DD into luxury but then you are only left with minimal salary to replace all of those players you had to trade away.

[Wild-ling#1]

In what way can we use luxury tax to acquire KD?

Do you mean you don't know? Or are you saying it can't be done?

Can we not sign KD and then go into the luxury tax to extend DeMar?

[Wild-ling#1]

You called my ideas "entirely moronic", Snooch. In writing. Above. Maybe it shouldn't be there ... but it is.

[mcHAPPY]

My 3rd paragraph is entirely impossible? We can certainly hold on to DD until we find out if KD is coming, no?

If he's interested, the parties discuss who needs to stay to lure him here. That might mean DD.

But I didn't suggest we could sign KD and keep DD and extend all our free agents. I just pointed out that the Spurs made a number of moves after they had landed LaMarcus. They renounced CoJo. People signed (and re-signed) great deals after they had won the LaMarcus sweepstakes - not as big a surprise, right?

What if Bebe and Bismack kick ass this season? And JV stalls. JV doesn't have a no-trade. KD might rather play with DD, KL, DC than JV, KL and DC. T-Ross, Scola, Patterson can go. There are other ways this could happen, is my point.

And are you saying there's no way - no scenario - in which Masai couldn't use luxury-tax dollars to help get KD here (if he had them)?

*Yawn*

You know, I am a stubborn person but I even admit when I'm wrong. I've done it once or twice on these very forums. But there is no point in engaging in a conversation with you. You pick and choose the comments you wish to address.quite frequently discarding the rubbish as if it was never typed, continuing along with the conversation as if you have all the answers - correct/grounded in reality or not be damned.

It is very tiring and times like this I wonder why I bother. I should have known better. Good day.

[Axel]

And are you saying there's no way - no scenario - in which Masai couldn't use luxury-tax dollars to help get KD here (if he had them)?

In what way can we use luxury tax to acquire KD?

[Snooch]

My 3rd paragraph is entirely impossible? We can certainly hold on to DD until we find out if KD is coming, no?

If he's interested, the parties discuss who needs to stay to lure him here. That might mean DD.

But I didn't suggest we could sign KD and keep DD and extend all our free agents. I just pointed out that the Spurs made a number of moves after they had landed LaMarcus. They renounced CoJo. People signed (and re-signed) great deals after they had won the LaMarcus sweepstakes - not as big a surprise, right?

What if Bebe and Bismack kick ass this season? And JV stalls. JV doesn't have a no-trade. KD might rather play with DD, KL, DC than JV, KL and DC. T-Ross, Scola, Patterson can go. There are other ways this could happen, is my point.

And are you saying there's no way - no scenario - in which Masai couldn't use luxury-tax dollars to help get KD here (if he had them)?

Take the blinders off, boys! And let KD have a say ... and then consider.

to put an end to this nonsensical debate.(since you have now changed the goalposts of it)

Sure. it is entirely possible that the Raps can wait until they have a commitment from KD before either releasing demar, or somehow finding a trade for multiple multiple players and recieve absolutely nothing back in terms of salary in order to accommodate the signing.

Now,

to move the goalposts back to where it all started......

Sitting idly by reduces the opportunity to be able to trade contract for capspace
Sitting idly by increases the risk of having to add future assets to the dropping of those contracts
Sitting idly by and not making a decision on demar while courting KD shows a lack of decision by management as to direction


KD would never choose to play on an incomplete team such as you are suggesting in relation to DD/DC/KL as there would only be Ppat and Bebe and Biyombo under contract in the front court and NO MONEY, or as you suggest Ppat gone...so a possible draft pick, Biyombo and Bebe.....that is miles away from a championship frontcourt.

But yes there are lots of ways that it coul;d all play out. But all but one of those ways are not good, bad, illogical, etc.

[Snooch]

Yes - you absolutely should try to blame me for someone else calling my ideas "moronic". Just stands to reason!

Actually, I originally called your post less logical, to which you complained was improper use of the word illogical

so then I posted that I could have said that it was something somethin moronic.

So to sum up, I didnt originally call your post moronic, But then when you kept trying to poke little holes in my debate I stated that I could have called it moronic.

And to my understanding of the rules, I am withing my rights to do so.

[Wild-ling#1]

The best speculation is that which is grounded in reality.

Your third paragraph where you did your most basketball-related speculating is entirely impossible.

You need uneven trades, Bird Rights, and exceptions to extend beyond the salary cap. You can't keep all rights to free agents AND sign Durant AND then extend your own free agents.

Something has to give and what has been posted numerous times is the choice is to gut your team or let DD walk whereby you replace him with a more efficient and better overall player in every way imaginable while keeping the rest of the team intact.

My 3rd paragraph is entirely impossible? We can certainly hold on to DD until we find out if KD is coming, no?

If he's interested, the parties discuss who needs to stay to lure him here. That might mean DD.

But I didn't suggest we could sign KD and keep DD and extend all our free agents. I just pointed out that the Spurs made a number of moves after they had landed LaMarcus. They renounced CoJo. People signed (and re-signed) great deals after they had won the LaMarcus sweepstakes - not as big a surprise, right?

What if Bebe and Bismack kick ass this season? And JV stalls. JV doesn't have a no-trade. KD might rather play with DD, KL, DC than JV, KL and DC. T-Ross, Scola, Patterson can go. There are other ways this could happen, is my point.

And are you saying there's no way - no scenario - in which Masai couldn't use luxury-tax dollars to help get KD here (if he had them)?

[Wild-ling#1]

Yes - you absolutely should try to blame me for someone else calling my ideas "moronic". Just stands to reason!