Article: Ujiri Resting Heavily On Maintaining The Status Quo

[Axel]

Do you mean you don't know? Or are you saying it can't be done?

Can we not sign KD and then go into the luxury tax to extend DeMar?

No we can't. We need to renounce DD to have the cap space. By renouncing DD we no longer have the ability to go over the cap to sign DD. That's the whole point of renouncing.

Now if you want to make trades to make the cap space outside of DD's cap hold, then yes, you can resign DD into luxury but then you are only left with minimal salary to replace all of those players you had to trade away.

[planetmars]

The Spurs didn't play it safe. They traded Splitter the day before LMA committed to the Spurs (who was also interested in the Suns who just landed Chandler). They had to trade Splitter to Atlanta for cap space.

Tim Duncan had to take a pay cut (again). His cap hold was about $15M but decided to take a $6M deal so that they could shave $9M off his hold. Manu came back for the room exception (about $2.5M). Cutting his cap hold from $10.5M to 0 (essentially).

KL got the max but his cap hold was only $7M as he was coming off a rookie scale contract. So they could keep his cap hold on the books and extend him after they signed Aldridge.

Danny Green signed back for $10M a year, about $3M more than his cap hold of just $7M. So they kept his cap hold on the books to save $3M until after LMA was signed.

Corey Joseph was an RFA with a cap hold of only $5M. His contract could be matched but it was easier to let him go and save the $5M.

Would DD take a pay cut to shave his $15M cap hold? Because that's what you'd have to ask him to do. If you renounce him, you'd need cap space to resign him - something the Raptors may not have if they are chasing KD. Would DD do what Tim or Manu did? That's asking a lot for a guy that's not about to retire. Would Masai trade Lowry or Carroll (with other assets) like the Spurs did with Splitter? Seems risky for a guy that usually is risk averse.

San Antonio traded Splitter so that they can move in on LMA without having to do any kind of S&T (that will make it more difficult for them to compete with teams like Phoenix). So they didn't wait until LMA essentially signed on the dotted line. They took a risk.. a pretty big risk actually.

Raptors can hold on to DD but if KD is taking his time (and he probably will), another team can come in and scoop DD as he's not going to be waiting around forever. Tyson Chandler didn't want to wait for Dallas to get their ducks in a row, and got scooped by Phoenix.

I think the easiest thing to do is to talk to KD.. convince him TO is the place to be. Get Drake to smoke a joint with him. But if someone scoops up DD while Toronto is busy talking.. let them. It happened with Amir and with Lou... and with Tyson in Dallas. DD will want to take care of himself before the Raptors get their ducks in a row.. I know if I was him I would. I suspect LAL will snatch him. Seems like a good fit.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I'm not sure why there are any arguments going on about whether or not trading/releasing DeRozan is the only option for being able to sign Durant, when there have been multiple posts explaining the various options. planetmars did a great job initially, which McHappy expanded on in post #401 of the salary cap thread.

To summarize:

In any scenario (that minimizes number of players removed from the roster, especially top-tier players), every expiring contract must be released - Johnson, Ross, Scola, whoever the 15th man is (if signed & assuming he's only signed to a 1-year contract).

Notes
- 1st round picks have cap space attached to them, the value of which is dependent on the slot (Raptors have 2 1st round picks in 2016)
- for cap calculations, the team must have at least 12 slots accounted for; if so many players are traded/released that less than 11 are still on the roster (since KD would become the 12th), cap space is added to account for the empty slots
- Biyombo would need to be traded if he picks up his player option (or Bebe could be released/traded), for no guaranteed salary in return

Option 1 - release DeRozan (or trade for no guaranteed salary)

Option 2 - trade Valanciunas for no/minimal guaranteed salary

Option 3 - trade Carroll for no/minimal guaranteed salary

Option 4 - trade Lowry & filler (would likely need to be either Joseph or Patterson, or Biyombo/Bebe and 1st round pick or two) for no guaranteed salary

Option 5 - trade Joseph & Patterson & filler (likely most/all minimum salaries and/or 1st rounds picks, due to added salary that all the empty roster slots would add back) for no guaranteed salary


When you consider the following, there's clearly logical, objective rationale for DeRozan being the most likely option:

- only option that requires only a release, as opposed to one/multiple lopsided trades

- trading significant salary for no salary in return is always hard, but especially so when teams know why you're doing it and will hold you hostage to drive up the cost even more (ie: 1st round picks and future 1st round picks)

- unlikely that MU trades Valanciunas or Carroll, because their recent [re]signings seem to indicate that they are MU's guys

- Carroll (3&D wing capable of guarding PF/SF/SG spots) would seem to be an ideal fit alongside KD on the wing

- completely gutting the team's depth, while leaving them capped out, doesn't seem like an ideal (or MU-style) approach to team-building

- KD is essentially an all-around better, more efficient version of DeRozan (scoring wing), meaning his position (role) is the most obvious to be replaced straight-up by the acquisition of KD


* I will say that I could see Lowry as a likely #1b type option, given his age, injury/longevity concerns, positional depth (Joseph & Wright), and contract status (1 additional guaranteed season, followed by a player-option for the 17-18 season). Having said that, Lowry's contract could also allow the Raptors to add another max player in 2017, so the likelihood of dumping Lowry to lure KD (1 max player opposed to 2 max players, over the next two offseasons) takes a bit of a hit when thinking longer-term.

[Wild-ling#1]

Honestly, it seems to me that some of you will expend significant energy in proving it just can't be done with DD.

But are happy to come up with cheap options (Gerald Henderson) to replace DD.

I like JV. But we might find we have cheap options among our prospects ... or might sign somebody for the front court with our picks. What if KD wants to come play with DeMar? And if KD is coming, maybe we get someone inexpensive and serviceable for T-Ross .... or Bruno. Or Powell. Or Delon.

But I think it is fair to point out that some are so down on DeMar that nothing but scorn is poured upon the head of anyone who is interested in keeping him. Even though it seems there is a chance that KD might only come to play with KL/DD and some others (to be named later).

I don't know that this is so. But I don't know that this is not so. But I don't think you can blame me for the narrowness of this discussion. Or blame me (solely, anyway) for its chippiness. That all got started long before arrived, right?

[Snooch]

no one has ever said there was no other way to get it done, only there is one most logical way to do so.

There is no "most logical" way to do anything. Something is either logical or it isn't.

Similarly, while it's unlikely that a coin will turn up "heads" 100 times in a row, it's possible. These statements are mis-applied renderings of logic and probability. They're false.

yet again a post where you tell people there are wrong, but add nothing to support said claims and instead counter with an argument based on grammar,

I was trying to be nice when I stated there was a most logical way to do this deal, I know there is only logical and illogical, your way is entirely, completely and utterly illogical, improbably, and entirely moronic. Better? or do you prefer my original response.

You called my ideas "entirely moronic", Snooch. In writing. Above. Maybe it shouldn't be there ... but it is.

Da Rules as laid out by the Doc
THE "DO NOT" RULES:

* DO NOT make personal attacks (name calling, hostile remarks, accusations, etc.). In discussion, attack ideas and opinions, not the people who hold them. Note that an attack on your ideas and beliefs are not considered a personal attack under our rules even if you identify so closely with your beliefs and ideas that you personally consider an attack on those beliefs or ideas to be an attack on you.

[golden]

Maybe Axel already covered it, but I think we need DanH or some capologist get specific on a realistic scenario where DD is a lead recruiter for Durant, with KD getting max salary and KD also requiring DD to be on the team. Is this possible, and what does DD's salary and the rest of the Raps team look like?

I have no problem over-paying DD, if that's the package deal cost of getting KD, since KD is worth way more than the max. You can always trade DD later (ala Chandler Parsons) after locking up KD long term.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Honestly, it seems to me that some of you will expend significant energy in proving it just can't be done with DD.

But are happy to come up with cheap options (Gerald Henderson) to replace DD.

I like JV. But we might find we have cheap options among our prospects ... or might sign somebody for the front court with our picks. What if KD wants to come play with DeMar? And if KD is coming, maybe we get someone inexpensive and serviceable for T-Ross .... or Bruno. Or Powell. Or Delon.

But I think it is fair to point out that some are so down on DeMar that nothing but scorn is poured upon the head of anyone who is interested in keeping him. Even though it seems there is a chance that KD might only come to play with KL/DD and some others (to be named later).

I don't know that this is so. But I don't know that this is not so. But I don't think you can blame me for the narrowness of this discussion. Or blame me (solely, anyway) for its chippiness. That all got started long before arrived, right?

With regards to the bold, as well as the poster(s) who floated that sort of idea, it was never a simple 1-for-1 suggestion.

Part 1: replace DD with a cheaper option

Part 2: use cap space created by going with cheaper option to upgrade another position(s)

It's a domino-effect type of move, pointing out the discrepancy between the true value that DeRozan adds (per the advanced stats, which are certainly not a be-all-and-end-all of player evaluation) and the size of contract he's likely going to demand (I'd be thrilled if he took a Duncan-like team-first approach to his salary and picked-up his player option, but I'd also like being able to turn invisible or fly).

It's also about the complimentary fit that a 3&D wing would more likely resemble next to a true #1 player like Durant, as opposed to another one-dimensional (and statistically inefficient) scoring wing, which a true #1 would at least somewhat make redundant (max or near max salary is a lot to play for a somewhat redundant, less than ideal complimentary player).

[mcHAPPY]

Honestly, it seems to me that some of you will expend significant energy in proving it just can't be done with DD.

But are happy to come up with cheap options (Gerald Henderson) to replace DD.

I like JV. But we might find we have cheap options among our prospects ... or might sign somebody for the front court with our picks. What if KD wants to come play with DeMar? And if KD is coming, maybe we get someone inexpensive and serviceable for T-Ross .... or Bruno. Or Powell. Or Delon.

But I think it is fair to point out that some are so down on DeMar that nothing but scorn is poured upon the head of anyone who is interested in keeping him. Even though it seems there is a chance that KD might only come to play with KL/DD and some others (to be named later).

I don't know that this is so. But I don't know that this is not so. But I don't think you can blame me for the narrowness of this discussion. Or blame me (solely, anyway) for its chippiness. That all got started long before arrived, right?

Bold: No. The scorn is the insistence it would be better to gut a solid TEAM to keep a seriously flawed and one-dimensional player who has one quality which is significantly trumped by KD. The options to create cap space have been laid out by numerous posters - those options have INCLUDED keeping DeRozan.


Underlined: The discussion has hardly been narrow. Even the biggest detractors of DD's game have laid out all the options to signing KD (or any player to a max contract) - including keeping DD. The narrowness and chippiness is a direct result of the dancing in circles (or denail) with regards to the facts of the situation. There is also a huge difference of opinion in the value of DeRozan. Some do believe he could be replaced with a Gerald Henderson-type player (I believe that opinion is the minority) while most don't seem to believe any combination of JV-Carroll-PP-Joseph-Lowry-prospects (i.e. the team and future) is worth losing just to keep DD.

The biggest factor in KD leaving OKC is his belief he will have a better shot to win elsewhere. He already has a team with superstar talent. The problem is even a superstar team needs a solid supporting cast.


Who knows? Maybe KD stays in OKC knowing Westbrook leaves the following season, allowing OKC to get the financial flexibility needed to add the depth and supporting cast they currently lack? But then you come back to the issue that OKC is never going to pay deep in to luxury tax and they are NEVER going to pay repeater tax.

[Snooch]

I like JV. But we might find we have cheap options among our prospects ... or might sign somebody for the front court with our picks.

Sure, Maybe, but I cannot see a situation (unless we luck into an anthony davis type of draft pick) where KD would be super excited to play with a rookie up fron. And BEBE has shown nothing in his career to date to even sniff at what JV brings...but sure it is possible. I will give it a ceiling of 1%

What if KD wants to come play with DeMar? And if KD is coming, maybe we get someone inexpensive and serviceable for T-Ross .... or Bruno. Or Powell. Or Delon.

Sure, maybe KD will only come to solely play with DD, nothing so far in any news source, social media, or otherwise suggests that KD and DD are so tight that this is more of a certainty than KD wanting to play with good-great players and a complete team less so than playing with DD and either a team missing a sf/c/pg and either most or all of our depth and future assets. Cause you know, how you gonna trade away a contract for nothing without giving something else up. Cause I am sure that loads of teams are lining up to help us shed salary, keep all future assets/flexibility and still sign KD.

But I think it is fair to point out that some are so down on DeMar that nothing but scorn is poured upon the head of anyone who is interested in keeping him. Even though it seems there is a chance that KD might only come to play with KL/DD and some others (to be named later).

the chance that KD would only come here to play with DD are slim because the financials of it cripple the team now and in the future. But you have KD and a poor fit next to him

[mcHAPPY]

Maybe Axel already covered it, but I think we need DanH or some capologist get specific on a realistic scenario where DD is a lead recruiter for Durant, with KD getting max salary and KD also requiring DD to be on the team. Is this possible, and what does DD's salary and the rest of the Raps team look like?

I have no problem over-paying DD, if that's the package deal cost of getting KD, since KD is worth way more than the max. You can always trade DD later (ala Chandler Parsons) after locking up KD long term.

Axel, planetmars, and CRF have done a good job laying it all out in numerous posts scattered throughout the threads.

It most certainly is possible.

The difference of opinion is whether it is worth the price to keep DD as opposed to trading away major parts of the current team and its future.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

...

...

Can you please both stop the ongoing hissy-fit or feud or whatever you want to call it. If you have an issue, please work through it via PMs and/or with the cooperation of the Admins/Mods.

Please be respectful and keep the personal attacks, remarks and snide swipes out of your posts, or else you'll leave the Admins/Mods no choice but to give you both a time out.


Cheers

[SkywalkerAC]

I'm not sure why there are any arguments going on about whether or not trading/releasing DeRozan is the only option for being able to sign Durant, when there have been multiple posts explaining the various options. planetmars did a great job initially, which McHappy expanded on in post #401 of the salary cap thread.

To summarize:

In any scenario (that minimizes number of players removed from the roster, especially top-tier players), every expiring contract must be released - Johnson, Ross, Scola, whoever the 15th man is (if signed & assuming he's only signed to a 1-year contract).

Notes
- 1st round picks have cap space attached to them, the value of which is dependent on the slot (Raptors have 2 1st round picks in 2016)
- for cap calculations, the team must have at least 12 slots accounted for; if so many players are traded/released that less than 11 are still on the roster (since KD would become the 12th), cap space is added to account for the empty slots
- Biyombo would need to be traded if he picks up his player option (or Bebe could be released/traded), for no guaranteed salary in return

Option 1 - release DeRozan (or trade for no guaranteed salary)

Option 2 - trade Valanciunas for no/minimal guaranteed salary

Option 3 - trade Carroll for no/minimal guaranteed salary

Option 4 - trade Lowry & filler (would likely need to be either Joseph or Patterson, or Biyombo/Bebe and 1st round pick or two) for no guaranteed salary

Option 5 - trade Joseph & Patterson & filler (likely most/all minimum salaries and/or 1st rounds picks, due to added salary that all the empty roster slots would add back) for no guaranteed salary


When you consider the following, there's clearly logical, objective rationale for DeRozan being the most likely option:

- only option that requires only a release, as opposed to one/multiple lopsided trades

- trading significant salary for no salary in return is always hard, but especially so when teams know why you're doing it and will hold you hostage to drive up the cost even more (ie: 1st round picks and future 1st round picks)

- unlikely that MU trades Valanciunas or Carroll, because their recent [re]signings seem to indicate that they are MU's guys

- Carroll (3&D wing capable of guarding PF/SF/SG spots) would seem to be an ideal fit alongside KD on the wing

- completely gutting the team's depth, while leaving them capped out, doesn't seem like an ideal (or MU-style) approach to team-building

- KD is essentially an all-around better, more efficient version of DeRozan (scoring wing), meaning his position (role) is the most obvious to be replaced straight-up by the acquisition of KD


* I will say that I could see Lowry as a likely #1b type option, given his age, injury/longevity concerns, positional depth (Joseph & Wright), and contract status (1 additional guaranteed season, followed by a player-option for the 17-18 season). Having said that, Lowry's contract could also allow the Raptors to add another max player in 2017, so the likelihood of dumping Lowry to lure KD (1 max player opposed to 2 max players, over the next two offseasons) takes a bit of a hit when thinking longer-term.

You do know that we could trade for expirings mid season and put other options on the same footing, right?

[Wild-ling#1]

Thanks to planetmars, McHappy and CalgaryRapsFan for laying all that out. Ugh! (I wonder if it's exhaustive; but who could ask for more )

I take your point about KD rendering DeMar being the obvious guy to let go if we can interest KD.

Still, I think that all ought to concede that:

1) We don't have to do it before we find out KD is actually coming. And he might improve. We'll see.

2) KD might have personal reasons for wanting DeMar to stay.

Just because something is hard, doesn't mean impossible, obviously. I sure like option 5 best. We keep Delon Wright, Bruno JV, DD, DC and KL ... and get Durant.

So ... who guards other teams' PF's, I wonder. Is that a problem? Not just DC. Bebe?

Anyway, I think there are others beside me who would like to see this issue fully canvassed. Not so bad for early September. And I never said I have the expertise to do that alone. Doesn't make me an idiot.

[Axel]

Honestly, it seems to me that some of you will expend significant energy in proving it just can't be done with DD.

But are happy to come up with cheap options (Gerald Henderson) to replace DD.

I like JV. But we might find we have cheap options among our prospects ... or might sign somebody for the front court with our picks. What if KD wants to come play with DeMar? And if KD is coming, maybe we get someone inexpensive and serviceable for T-Ross .... or Bruno. Or Powell. Or Delon.

But I think it is fair to point out that some are so down on DeMar that nothing but scorn is poured upon the head of anyone who is interested in keeping him. Even though it seems there is a chance that KD might only come to play with KL/DD and some others (to be named later).

I don't know that this is so. But I don't know that this is not so. But I don't think you can blame me for the narrowness of this discussion. Or blame me (solely, anyway) for its chippiness. That all got started long before arrived, right?

Hardcore fans will gladly spend energy on discussions, one of the main reasons why RR is the best place on the Internet.

Replacing DD is probably the easiest/cheapest of all the skills to replace. 3&D wing, gonna cost you. 2 way PG, gonna cost you. Young scoring C, gonna cost you. Volume scoring guard - Batum, Henderson are two names already thrown out there but there are plenty of options (Ross, Cojo, Powell included).

The reason you are getting so much "scorn" is that you have provided no possible alternative solution that hasn't already been shown to have greater risks/complexities (or even attempted to mitigate those risks within the CBA). The entire basis of your stance seems to be built around the idea that we don't know what KD is thinking. Well duh, no one does and by the time we do, it's too late. Masai won't know what KD is thinking until KD announces his decision, but that doesn't mean he (or us) shouldn't be prepared for his decision (either way it ends). The whole "we don't know what KD is thinking" position is completely useless for conversation or discussion, hence the frustration of posters who's ideas you gladly attack without providing real justification or rationale.

[Primer]

Maybe Axel already covered it, but I think we need DanH or some capologist get specific on a realistic scenario where DD is a lead recruiter for Durant, with KD getting max salary and KD also requiring DD to be on the team. Is this possible, and what does DD's salary and the rest of the Raps team look like?

I have no problem over-paying DD, if that's the package deal cost of getting KD, since KD is worth way more than the max. You can always trade DD later (ala Chandler Parsons) after locking up KD long term.

CalgaryRapsFan laid out all the options in his post a few above yours. There are a few different ways to do it and keep DD around, they just involve sending out other guys instead. If KD wants to play with DD we could make it happen. If KD doesn't care, then letting DD walk is the easiest way to be able to offer KD the max.