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Article: Ujiri Resting Heavily On Maintaining The Status Quo

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  • #61
    BS10 wrote: View Post
    Isn't that what DD is worth anyway? Whats the point of replacing him with a guy with the same abilities for the same money? Why not just re-sign him?
    DD lacks ability to defend at high level while also scoring efficiently.

    He is not worth a max contract despite there being GMs who might pay him max money.

    But this is a well discussed topic that has already been repeatedly shown in a now locked thread.

    I have little interest in discussing in this otherwise interesting and developing thread.

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    • #62
      mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
      DD lacks ability to defend at high level while also scoring efficiently.

      He is not worth a max contract despite there being GMs who might pay him max money.

      But this is a well discussed topic that has already been repeatedly shown in a now locked thread.

      I have little interest in discussing in this otherwise interesting and developing thread.
      I agree, I have no interest in discussing DD's abilities, etc... However, I don't see a treadmill move if we sign him near max, as in, 17-20 mill.
      #JaysWinningLikeItz93'

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      • #63
        McRealistic wrote: View Post
        With this mentality, I guess you are agreeing more with Tim C than you may think :

        "There’s always one eye on the future with Ujiri, which is a great quality, but sometimes the future can look so tantalizing you forget that you still have a present to take care of."

        "Under Ujiri, there is always a sense of ‘yeah, but wait to see what he does next summer!'"

        "Then, this summer he spent that cap space on role players to augment his controversial core, and so everyone is now looking towards that lottery pick next year and the options made possible by the skyrocketing salary cap"
        No.

        With this mentality I'm saying Ujiri is, hopefully, playing out his hand.

        The coach's contract will be up as will the contract of the coach's favourite player.

        The same coach and player who have been instrumental in 2 consecutive first round exits.

        Comment


        • #64
          mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
          The other problem is the second bold. I don't think he is waiting around waiting to see how things turn out. Tim is neglecting Ujiri can't snap his fingers and make a bold move that elevates the team to contender status happen. These types of moves are hardly one sided. Not sure if Tim noticed but Ujiri arranged the books to go after a max free agent this summer with no luck in Aldridge. He then arranged the books to go after one in 2016. He will also likely have the books arranged to pursue another in 2017. He is loading up on draft picks, prospects, and value contracts so that if free agency doesn't land the big one, he has other means in the trade arena.

          The only thing Ujiri can do is be prepared for an opportunity to arise. Thus far one has not. Luckily Ujiri remains ready.
          I would argue that being prepared and waiting for an opportunity to arise is another way of saying that he's going to wait and see how things pan out (with 'things' being the lottery, free agency, internal growth, etc). What I've bolded is entirely speculation on your end; you have no idea what offers have been on the table for DD or Lowry or any other Raptor since the Gay trade. This also speaks to the larger point, which is that there is every reason to think that such an opportunity may not arise, and that the Raps will be stuck with their current core due to lack of better options. To respond to BS10, the 'plan' could easily backfire; there are a lot of teams with more cap room, better rosters that are closer to contention and thus more appealing, or who have stockpiled a larger cache of assets than the Raps. There is no guarantee that any plan works out, ever.

          I personally think Ujiri has done a great job. I wanted a tank job, yes, but I'm very happy with where the Raps are now and think they're poised to make serious upgrades. Not once have I stated that Ujiri has made a mistake in pursuing this route, and significantly, neither did Chisholm in his article. Everyone seems so quick to equate any criticism or questioning of any kind to a wholesale condemnation of Ujiri's track record and plan as Raptors GM, and that simply isn't what's being put forward. All that's being asked is what might happen if that big move never materializes, and whether that's a function of a lack of options or Ujiri's seemingly cautious nature.

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          • #65
            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            I would argue that being prepared and waiting for an opportunity to arise is another way of saying that he's going to wait and see how things pan out (with 'things' being the lottery, free agency, internal growth, etc). What I've bolded is entirely speculation on your end; you have no idea what offers have been on the table for DD or Lowry or any other Raptor since the Gay trade. This also speaks to the larger point, which is that there is every reason to think that such an opportunity may not arise, and that the Raps will be stuck with their current core due to lack of better options. To respond to BS10, the 'plan' could easily backfire; there are a lot of teams with more cap room, better rosters that are closer to contention and thus more appealing, or who have stockpiled a larger cache of assets than the Raps. There is no guarantee that any plan works out, ever.

            I personally think Ujiri has done a great job. I wanted a tank job, yes, but I'm very happy with where the Raps are now and think they're poised to make serious upgrades. Not once have I stated that Ujiri has made a mistake in pursuing this route, and significantly, neither did Chisholm in his article. Everyone seems so quick to equate any criticism or questioning of any kind to a wholesale condemnation of Ujiri's track record and plan as Raptors GM, and that simply isn't what's being put forward. All that's being asked is what might happen if that big move never materializes, and whether that's a function of a lack of options or Ujiri's seemingly cautious nature.
            You're right the bold is my own speculation.

            I think the difference of opinion here is interpretation of Chisholms article.

            His half truths and neglect of facts makes me believe there is more to his motives than a PSA of what might never be.

            The reality is nothing is guaranteed for any team.

            Comment


            • #66
              mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
              I think the difference of opinion here is interpretation of Chisholms article.

              His half truths and neglect of facts makes me believe there is more to his motives than a PSA of what might never be.
              I'd say you're exactly right. But I take what I read from any sports writer that way, because I've not read one yet that was completely objective. To me the point for a fan site like this isn't to get every single fact right and to posit a completely airtight argument; that kind of writing is boring, serves no purpose other than to inform, and belongs on the major network sites like TSN. I really enjoy articles that make you question what you know about the team and consider other perspectives, because whether you end up dismissing them or not, it's at least made you confront a new idea.

              But all of that is a convoluted way of saying that this site would be very boring without articles like this one to stir the pot from time to time!

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              • #67
                Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                I would argue that being prepared and waiting for an opportunity to arise is another way of saying that he's going to wait and see how things pan out (with 'things' being the lottery, free agency, internal growth, etc). What I've bolded is entirely speculation on your end; you have no idea what offers have been on the table for DD or Lowry or any other Raptor since the Gay trade. This also speaks to the larger point, which is that there is every reason to think that such an opportunity may not arise, and that the Raps will be stuck with their current core due to lack of better options. To respond to BS10, the 'plan' could easily backfire; there are a lot of teams with more cap room, better rosters that are closer to contention and thus more appealing, or who have stockpiled a larger cache of assets than the Raps. There is no guarantee that any plan works out, ever.

                I personally think Ujiri has done a great job. I wanted a tank job, yes, but I'm very happy with where the Raps are now and think they're poised to make serious upgrades. Not once have I stated that Ujiri has made a mistake in pursuing this route, and significantly, neither did Chisholm in his article. Everyone seems so quick to equate any criticism or questioning of any kind to a wholesale condemnation of Ujiri's track record and plan as Raptors GM, and that simply isn't what's being put forward. All that's being asked is what might happen if that big move never materializes, and whether that's a function of a lack of options or Ujiri's seemingly cautious nature.
                I think you're making too great a pontification here. Any plan can back fire? So what? At least he has a plan, and why not let him carry out his plan before pre-emptively criticizing of what he hasn't achieved yet? Again this to me points to impatience.

                He's also made some great strides in his tenure as well. How about considering him pulling us out the rut we were in of lacking of making the playoffs and not even on the radar as a real destinations for quality free agents. Those are real achievements, especially in only 2 years.

                Again, this dreamy big move you're talking about is head scratching to me. Maybe this is a difference of understanding of basketball and difference of interpretation of the Raptors but theres a few more changes that I see would make us potential contenders. I don't think we need a splashy big move as you're/the author is suggesting.
                Last edited by BS10; Sun Aug 30, 2015, 11:47 PM.
                #JaysWinningLikeItz93'

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                • #68
                  I agree with the non-Zarar guy caster. Like what do you exactly expect to be done. There typically aren't to many trades that Masai loses. If there was a trade that we could get an all-star we would have done it by now. I don't see whats so wrong with that. We are making moves that are improving so its not like we are just staying the same each year. You build a culture of winning that shows you are just a piece away from making it to the next round/ ECF. It is always hard to assess how you will do in the play offs until the actual playoffs happen and match ups are set. Like what if you end up getting Cleveland first round... then you cant really say oh well this team sucks cause we took Cleveland to 7 games.


                  We will get an all-nba player. Until then I am ok with us making the playoffs and improving each year. We will have a top pick next year which will begin to mark the era of moving towards our next team. Then and only then we can truly assess where we are. That pick will most likely be a big part of our core moving forward.


                  I don't like the idea of making a move for the sake of making a move that isn't playing the game very smart.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    BS10 wrote: View Post
                    I think you're making too great a pontification here. Any plan can back fire? So what? At least he has a plan, and why not let him carry out his plan before pre-emptively criticizing of what he hasn't achieved yet? Again this to me points to impatience.
                    I would hardly call posing a what if question pre-emptively criticizing what he hasn't achieved.

                    BS10 wrote: View Post
                    Again, this dreamy big move you're talking about is head scratching to me. Maybe this is a difference of understanding of basketball and difference of interpretation of the Raptors but theres a few more changes that I see would make us potential contenders. I don't think we need a splashy big move as you're/the author is suggesting.
                    Well, you're right that there's a difference in basketball understanding there, because how you think the current roster is going to be a contender without adding another all-star is beyond me. And let me be clear: a contender is a team with a legit shot at a championship, not a 2nd round exit.

                    Now let me say my final peace because I've got to get to sleep; I like where the Raptors are at. I don't know how many more times I need to write that. Just because I like to wonder how things might turn out, or whether this slow build is really the right course doesn't mean I'm not thrilled about where the Raps are relative to 2 years ago. I just can't stand that so many people dismiss a valid question about whether Ujiri is or has been too cautious because they like what he's accomplished. Just as we can ask whether DeRozan is a franchise guy while appreciating all the hard work and effort he's put in to try to get there, we can appreciate our GM while wondering if he's made the right decisions. Don't mistake criticism or speculation for vilification.

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                    • #70
                      Yeah my two cents on Ujiri is that yes, he hasnt made any big adjustments since the Gay trade, but at the same time he appears to be set up in a relatively good way to land a star. He has not closed any avenues to attaining such a player by taking on bad contracts/tanking/trading away assets needlessly. Actually he has made sure that we have the means to sign max guys for multiple straight summers, traded for better assets (GV, Novak) and has helped make a better environment for developing players. The last one I think is key because he decided not to tank.

                      In my opinion, unless you draft a player like Anthony Davis who will be a superstar no matter what team drafts him, player development is how players exhaust their potential (along with self-motivation and work ethic of course). By getting a group of players in Lowry/DD/JJ/Carroll/Cojo to show young players good habits and how to be professional they are more likely to develop well. This is what we would have missed out on if we had traded Lowry all our older players and not signed guys like Carroll and Cojo who come from environments similar to that which I hope is created in Toronto. Yes, coaching is VERY important and a coach other than Casey who lets young guys learn would be beneficial and hopefully is coming, but as long as a good culture which emphasizes winning and professionalism is developed I think we are heading in the right direction. The D-league team and new training facilities are also an example of the dedication to player development. I don't think its a coincidence that Leonard, Butler, Draymond, and even Gobert overachieved for teams that have setup great structures.

                      I don't doubt that in the next 2-3 years a superstar will be on the roster because Ujiri is leaving and probably open to any avenue to such a player. To be in such a situation while also being a 50 wing team capable of getting to the conference championship is impressive, especially in the short amount of time MU has had as GM.

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                      • #71
                        Chisholm said: "Masai Ujiri has become surprisingly content with the status quo."

                        Actually, though I was prepared to give the writer the benefit of the doubt as regards it being a "devil's advocate" piece (especially as some of us are desperate for anything to mull over) that first line, and the title of the piece, actually, are conclusions. They are not merely speculative. I think the people who are suggesting that (to draw such conclusions) you have to provide some alternatives as to what he might have done make an excellent point.

                        I think jettisoning Greivis, and the reigning 6th-man-of-the-year, was decisive enough. Want to talk about swinging for the fences? Do you really think drafting Bruno Caboclo was a conservative move? And quickly scooping the Hawks' best playoff performer, and the Spurs' back-up point-guard, was kinda' nice ... while significantly re-orienting the team toward defensive prowess.

                        Conservative? I don't think so. Masai (like Anthopoulos, I think) has already shown boldness and patience and the ability to maximize value on the trades he does make ... while re-positioning the team with youth, picks, the 905's, stabilizing the franchise and significantly improving our reputation ... it's now got a "buzz" to it. That's a lot to do, in a short period of time.

                        So "no", I wouldn't take the piece very seriously. At the end of the day, it really asks only three rhetorical questions:

                        "Couldn't he have done more?"

                        "What if it all doesn't work?"

                        "Maybe he just doesn't have the nerve (or a real plan)?"

                        Bollocks, I say. He's the Masai-ah. Now won't someone please hand the man his cape?
                        Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Mon Aug 31, 2015, 03:58 AM.

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                        • #72
                          Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                          I would hardly call posing a what if question pre-emptively criticizing what he hasn't achieved.



                          Well, you're right that there's a difference in basketball understanding there, because how you think the current roster is going to be a contender without adding another all-star is beyond me. And let me be clear: a contender is a team with a legit shot at a championship, not a 2nd round exit.

                          Now let me say my final peace because I've got to get to sleep; I like where the Raptors are at. I don't know how many more times I need to write that. Just because I like to wonder how things might turn out, or whether this slow build is really the right course doesn't mean I'm not thrilled about where the Raps are relative to 2 years ago. I just can't stand that so many people dismiss a valid question about whether Ujiri is or has been too cautious because they like what he's accomplished. Just as we can ask whether DeRozan is a franchise guy while appreciating all the hard work and effort he's put in to try to get there, we can appreciate our GM while wondering if he's made the right decisions. Don't mistake criticism or speculation for vilification.
                          I guess you've never heard of strategy? Acquiring a superstar talent is great and all but if you're not the 2-3 teams that have that talent, you've got to have rely on other methods in winning with lesser talented players by maximizing their strengths. I guess you missed the 2013-14 finals where the Spurs beat down Lebron and the Heat. Duncan was well past his prime and I wouldn't consider him a superstar talent anymore but he can and was still very effective. The Spurs won that series based on their depth and the execution of the strategy that they implemented to beat the Heat. It was far from a one man show. The Spurs did not win that series because they had one guy overpowering the other team, they won because their players bought into the system and executed their plan.

                          What are some things that could be done for the Raptors? Well a new coach for one. Someone who can implement a real offensive strategy and maximize the strengths of our players and make adjustments towards the opposition team's line ups during the game. This has been discussed to death already. Also improving the PF spot with a real defensive presence to help JV on the defensive end and someone who can rotate onto spots from 3-4-5, as well as having some sort of offensive weapon. We can also use another back up 3-D wing defender who would help by balancing out the back court when there are miss match ups with the opposing team. There are a few other things that are needed but those are the key ones I feel need to be addressed. Yes, I think, with these changes we have a real shot at contending, and not just a 2nd round exit.

                          Your question or the author's question isn't palatable given the timing of it. I've already touched upon this and I hardly feel the need to discuss it further but Masai is only in his second year and don't see how questioning his moves so far and suggesting them as not splashy enough shouldn't strike a nerve for some of the Raptor's fan base. What were you expecting?

                          I don't feel the article is real criticism because it doesn't really provide any concrete solutions to problems that the Raptors had during the season/playoffs. Rather it provokes or encourages the idea that the only way to contend is making a "big" dreamy move and I've already illustrated my dissent for that. Face it, the article is weak.
                          Last edited by BS10; Mon Aug 31, 2015, 04:51 PM.
                          #JaysWinningLikeItz93'

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                          • #73
                            Everybody who follows the Raptors can see another first round exit as the best this team currently can achieve whether that comes after 40 wins or 50 isn't important. It isn't title or bust but improving upon previous the years achievements or at least showing forward progress in the playoffs

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                            • #74
                              raptors999 wrote: View Post
                              Everybody who follows the Raptors can see another first round exit as the best this team currently can achieve ...
                              Shucks, R-999. This is one-part speculation and one-part falsehood.

                              (since I follow the Raptors and honestly don't see a first-round exit as "the best they can do". And I can't be alone on this).

                              So ... why say it?
                              Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Mon Aug 31, 2015, 04:12 AM.

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                              • #75
                                Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
                                Shucks, R-999. This is one-part speculation and one-part falsehood.

                                (since I follow the Raptors and honestly don't see a first-round exit as "the best they can do". And I can't be alone on this).

                                So ... why say it?
                                Sorry for the hyperbole but ESPN had them in the bottom seed and SI which uses WS projects 50 wins but they were projected as high last season and fell short of expectation. If Raps fall to the bottom seeds they face #1 or #2 and they've already been upset by lower seeds twice upsetting a #1 or #2 is very rare

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