Article: Ujiri Resting Heavily On Maintaining The Status Quo

[mcHAPPY]

A fine distinction. But not to worry - I suspect you might be covered under the "Snooch, 'ho-holds-barred' exemption".

I think he is covered under the "Wild-ling-keeps-dancing-around-the-relevent-topics exemption"

[mcHAPPY]

I'm not sure anyone can feel they've really done their best to take DeMar's side until Snooch has called them a "moron" (or some such.)

It doesn't really matter who Masai hears from on the KD issue ... so long as he hears about it, right? Knowledge is power.

Holding on to the rights of players until you've landed your big FA is what the Spurs did ... and what Sacramento didn't do. That's how we got CoJo for nothing (of course). KD may not even come here unless he can play with certain players. But we don't know who they are ... or if he'll come at all. But Masai may not care at all if he loses trade value on some assets if he's landed KD. (But big if). And maybe the Board gives him one-time luxury-tax permission, to hold on to prospects and bench pieces, until the the cap goes up again in 2017. That's where the Cavs are, right? Or maybe DD and KD sign for one year, and "sculpt " their demands, to maximize value in 2017 (like LeBron has).

See - speculations!

... Fun to talk about, as I said (you seemed not to notice that bit). But you can only do so much, so far out. Meteorologists will call the weather two days ahead ... and are still wrong, sometimes! Seven days is as far as they'll generally go. Do you guys really want me to call the weather for a particular date next July?

(Some sun. Hopefully some rain. And clouds ... some of those, too ...

Still, that's ok if you can admit that it's rather wildly speculative. But can you?

The best speculation is that which is grounded in reality.

Your third paragraph where you did your most basketball-related speculating is entirely impossible.

You need uneven trades, Bird Rights, and exceptions to extend beyond the salary cap. You can't keep all rights to free agents AND sign Durant AND then extend your own free agents.

Something has to give and what has been posted numerous times is the choice is to gut your team or let DD walk whereby you replace him with a more efficient and better overall player in every way imaginable while keeping the rest of the team intact.

[Wild-ling#1]

And i never called you a moron, i originally stated that your idea was less logical, but then u argued about my use of the term, so then i called your idea moronic.

Again, i did not call u the person a moron.
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A fine distinction. But not to worry - I suspect you might be covered under the "Snooch, 'ho-holds-barred' exemption".

[Snooch]

I'm not sure anyone can feel they've really done their best to take DeMar's side until Snooch has called them a "moron" (or some such.)

It doesn't really matter who Masai hears from on the KD issue ... so long as he hears about it, right? Knowledge is power.

Holding on to the rights of players until you've landed your big FA is what the Spurs did ... and what Sacramento didn't do. That's how we got CoJo for nothing (of course). KD may not even come here unless he can play with certain players. But we don't know who they are ... or if he'll come at all. But Masai may not care at all if he loses trade value on some assets if he's landed KD. (But big if). And maybe the Board gives him one-time luxury-tax permission, to hold on to prospects and bench pieces, until the the cap goes up again in 2017. That's where the Cavs are, right? Or maybe DD and KD sign for one year, and "sculpt " their demands, to maximize value in 2017 (like LeBron has).

See - speculations!

... Fun to talk about, as I said (you seemed not to notice that bit). But you can only do so much, so far out. Meteorologists will call the weather two days ahead ... and are still wrong, sometimes! Seven days is as far as they'll generally go. Do you guys really want me to call the weather for a particular date next July?

(Some sun. Hopefully some rain. And clouds ... some of those, too ...

Still, that's ok if you can admit that it's rather wildly speculative. But can you?

All of the apeculations you just posted are either not possible under the cba, or predicated on kd/demar talking less than 10 million each for one year. And that is pretty oit there.

And i never called you a moron, i originally stated that your idea was less logical, but then u argued about my use of the term, so then i called your idea moronic.

Again, i did not call u the person a moron.



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[Snooch]

Bold 1 - so you don't want to make a plan or even speculate until the time comes? Why bother being on a basketball forum in July/August/Sept if not to speculate? Nothing is happening now, so we can only discuss things with speculation.

Bold 2 - the official cap number actually comes out after most players have made verbal agreements (during the moratorium), so most of the big deals are agreed upon without the final cap numbers. The final numbers get figured out well after it is known that the player will sign for x yrs at $ x.

Bold 3 - why would it be DD to get in the inside scoop from KD? Why not KL? or DC? Or most likely, Drake.

Bold 4 - yet you are not participating and choosing instead to poke holes in people's posts without offering any justification or reasoning. Arguing the meaning of the word "logical" doesn't really add to the conversation.

CalRapsFan has a great post earlier in another thread that I think applies here.



Masai and DD can have all the side conversations and good faith in the world, but if Masai is chasing KD, then leaving DD out to hang is the best possible way. If KD agrees to sign during the moratorium, then Masai can renounce DD at the end of the period. So it's not like Masai needs to commit to renouncing DD before getting a sit down and verbal agreement from KD. If KD wants to take more time to decide and that goes past the moratorium, then maybe Masai has to make the call if DD is getting offers/jumpy. All the good will built up means that DD is more likely to wait and see what happens than bolt before Masai knows what KD is doing.

Great post

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[Wild-ling#1]

I was trying to be nice when I stated there was a most logical way to do this deal, I know there is only logical and illogical, your way is entirely, completely and utterly illogical, improbably, and entirely moronic. Better? ....

Bold 1 - so you don't want to make a plan or even speculate until the time comes? Why bother being on a basketball forum in July/August/Sept if not ...? ....
Bold 2 - the official cap number actually comes out after most players have made verbal agreements (during the moratorium), so most of the big deals are agreed upon without the final cap numbers.
Bold 3 - why would it be DD to get in the inside scoop from KD? Why not KL? or DC? Or most likely, Drake.

Bold 4 - yet you are not participating and choosing instead to poke holes in people's posts without offering any justification or reasoning. Arguing the meaning of the word "logical" doesn't really add to the conversation.

CalRapsFan has a great post earlier in another thread that I think applies here.

"Some people seem to have the delusion that the Raptors can keep every player and maintain all their rights, right up until KD is ready to sign on the dotted line, then they can unload half the under-contract roster. .... In reality, the Raptors would need to dump salary ahead of time, in the hopes of being able to sign KD, or else other teams would either hold them hostage or outright prevent them from being able to sign KD.

That's just another reason why DD is a much more viable option, as an avenue for clearing the necessary cap space; no trade required."

All the good will built up means that DD is more likely to wait and see what happens than bolt before Masai knows what KD is doing.

I'm not sure anyone can feel they've really done their best to take DeMar's side until Snooch has called them a "moron" (or some such.)

It doesn't really matter who Masai hears from on the KD issue ... so long as he hears about it, right? Knowledge is power.

Holding on to the rights of players until you've landed your big FA is what the Spurs did ... and what Sacramento didn't do. That's how we got CoJo for nothing (of course). KD may not even come here unless he can play with certain players. But we don't know who they are ... or if he'll come at all. But Masai may not care at all if he loses trade value on some assets if he's landed KD. (But big if). And maybe the Board gives him one-time luxury-tax permission, to hold on to prospects and bench pieces, until the the cap goes up again in 2017. That's where the Cavs are, right? Or maybe DD and KD sign for one year, and "sculpt " their demands, to maximize value in 2017 (like LeBron has).

See - speculations!

... Fun to talk about, as I said (you seemed not to notice that bit). But you can only do so much, so far out. Meteorologists will call the weather two days ahead ... and are still wrong, sometimes! Seven days is as far as they'll generally go. Do you guys really want me to call the weather for a particular date next July?

(Some sun. Hopefully some rain. And clouds ... some of those, too ...

Still, that's ok if you can admit that it's rather wildly speculative. But can you?

[Axel]

The moratorium period allows GM's (admittedly under great pressure) to hold meetings with players and contemplate various directions for a team ... simultaneously. Even we will have a lot more information then (about how the team looks generally and how DD, Bruno, T-Ross, JV and Kyle, etc. have performed).

But Masai will have more info than we do. I think he'll know what DD's expectations are going into July. The actual cap number will be out. Masai will know if the Board is willing to go into luxury tax territory, for certain players (short-term, 1st offender). After the playoffs are over, DD may be able to tell Masai if KD is seriously interested in coming here. But I don't think KD will really know until then. And certainly not on what kind of contract with what $/term structure ... and to play with whom

It can be fun to speculate. But the best decisions are typically made on full information. We won't have that info for quite some time. Some are comfortable assuming we have seen the best of DeMar. It's arguable. But they may be wrong.

I think Masai is cultivating a culture of solidarity within his organization, and creating good-will, so as to go into the 2016 and 2017 FA periods with salary range understandings and "good-faith" commitments from key players. That's what San Antonio did with such great results. .... and what Sacramento and Phoenix have not done. The Spurs playoff successes certainly helped - I know that. But that's the idea.

So. There are lots of scenarios possible. Lots. Some involve trading/releasing DeMar. And I think Masai will be prepared to move DeMar if it seems necessary. But I'm pulling for DD and Masai. If it was all about rooting for a winner - I'd just start cheering for somebody else.

Bold 1 - so you don't want to make a plan or even speculate until the time comes? Why bother being on a basketball forum in July/August/Sept if not to speculate? Nothing is happening now, so we can only discuss things with speculation.

Bold 2 - the official cap number actually comes out after most players have made verbal agreements (during the moratorium), so most of the big deals are agreed upon without the final cap numbers. The final numbers get figured out well after it is known that the player will sign for x yrs at $ x.

Bold 3 - why would it be DD to get in the inside scoop from KD? Why not KL? or DC? Or most likely, Drake.

Bold 4 - yet you are not participating and choosing instead to poke holes in people's posts without offering any justification or reasoning. Arguing the meaning of the word "logical" doesn't really add to the conversation.

CalRapsFan has a great post earlier in another thread that I think applies here.

The bold is the key, especially because moves would need to be made to free up cap space before a deal is reached. Once other teams are aware that KD has chosen the Raptors, do you really think they'd make trades that allow the Raps to clear the necessary space (ie: no guaranteed money back), without absolutely robbing MU of assets (ie: top tier prospects and 1st round picks)? Not a chance.

Some people seem to have the delusion that the Raptors can keep every player and maintain all their rights, right up until KD is ready to sign on the dotted line, then they can unload half the under-contract roster (ie: Lowry, Joseph, Patterson, Biyombo, etc...) into other teams' cap space. In reality, the Raptors would need to dump salary ahead of time, in the hopes of being able to sign KD, or else other teams would either hold them hostage or outright prevent them from being able to sign KD.

That's just another reason why DD is a much more viable option, as an avenue for clearing the necessary cap space; no trade required.

Masai and DD can have all the side conversations and good faith in the world, but if Masai is chasing KD, then leaving DD out to hang is the best possible way. If KD agrees to sign during the moratorium, then Masai can renounce DD at the end of the period. So it's not like Masai needs to commit to renouncing DD before getting a sit down and verbal agreement from KD. If KD wants to take more time to decide and that goes past the moratorium, then maybe Masai has to make the call if DD is getting offers/jumpy. All the good will built up means that DD is more likely to wait and see what happens than bolt before Masai knows what KD is doing.

[Snooch]

Ranked behind:

Tyreke,
Monta
Kobe
Green
Korver
Middleton
Bledsoe
Wade
Klay
butler



lol

[Snooch]

There is no "most logical" way to do anything. Something is either logical or it isn't.

Similarly, while it's unlikely that a coin will turn up "heads" 100 times in a row, it's possible. These statements are mis-applied renderings of logic and probability. They're false.

You can argue that it's unlikely that DeMar will improve this season. But that's all. You can also point out how difficult it would be difficult to keep DeMar and land KD ... but that's all.

But, in sports, we follow and watch to see people do spectacular things. Players ... and GM's too. Especially those we like.

That's why we all remember Yogi Berra's "It ain't over 'til it's over".

Which is only a reformulation of the expression "Don't count me out". Same thing ... but a boxing reference.

You can give up on DeMar. But it's giving up early on him. That's illogical. And I'm not gonna count him - or Masai - out.

yet again a post where you tell people there are wrong, but add nothing to support said claims and instead counter with an argument based on grammar,

I was trying to be nice when I stated there was a most logical way to do this deal, I know there is only logical and illogical, your way is entirely, completely and utterly illogical, improbably, and entirely moronic. Better? or do you prefer my original response.

and the reference to the coin flipping is again, an entirely suitable response, and example of how his last 15ish 3pt attempts at the end of season does not necessarily mean an improved 3pt shot as opposed to my statement that it's something else.

And it is entirely illogical to pull things out of the air and say that is what is going to happen in the future without any support, even so far as saying so when all statistical analysis points to the exact opposite.

No one is "counting him out", just some have tempered expectations based on the entirety of his career, the upswing of particular statistics, etc, and have based our expectations on that....not on a theory that he can go to the moon, because, well, it is possible.

[mcHAPPY]

SI's Top 100 for 2016 is out and highlights some of the criticisms made in this forum, in putting him at 61.:

http://www.si.com/nba/top-100-nba-pl...cetype=default

"Last year, DeMar DeRozan’s No. 61 ranking on this list inspired passionate disapproval from Raptors fans, given his 2014 All-Star selection, his 22.7 PPG average, and his first career postseason appearance. But if anything, SI.com overrated the 26-year-old, whose 2014–15 season was defined by an unfortunate groin injury, ghastly shooting numbers, and an embarrassing first-round sweep."

You should have clicked Read More:

It would be easier to forgive DeRozan’s 41.3% shooting and 28.4% three-point shooting if he were a skilled playmaker, a floor-spacer or a plus defender. Unfortunately, none of those accurately describe his game, so he must be held accountable for all of his bricks. Toronto’s superb offensive efficiency fell 3.3 points with him on the court last season, and he spent the playoffs in handcuffs (20.3 points on 20 shots per game). In DeRozan’s defense, his efficiency takes a hit because he plays huge minutes and he’s often the bail-out guy at the end of possessions. When he’s using his athleticism to go downhill, DeRozan is able to put significant pressure on defenses and his options improve: He’s a fine finisher around the hoop, he seeks out and successfully draws a lot of contact, and he’s always a threat to use his leaping ability to posterize defenders. If Toronto does decide to play small ball more extensively by utilizing DeMarre Carroll as a power forward, DeRozan stands to benefit from the greater spacing that should result. – B.G.

2014-15: 20.1 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 3.5 APG, 41.3 FG%, 28.4 3P%

Advanced: 17.4 PER, Win Shares: 4.0, -0.18 RPM

Too many poor shots taken with 8+ seconds on the shot clock and too many 'hold until after buzzer to send up a heave' to give him the 'bail out' label.

He is the least athletic athletic player I know. Label him athletic but make sure there is a clear lane and he can run to do it.

Utilizing Carroll as a PF? These guys are knobs. Pay a premier 3andD wing a premier price to play PF? No. They already have a PF who can space the floor....and his name is Patman!

[Axel]

It's almost as if we need a dedicated thread just for DeMar...

Lol

Nothing has changed by locking down 1 thread. When someone has something worth while to say, you'll see what I mean.

[2KJ]

Interesting and pessimistic article. Was it written due to the success the Jays are having this year? Where this season, the Jays have been swinging for the fences both on the field and in the front office, but the Raps haven't? Aside from being a different sport, the Jays have sucked ass for years despite having 2 real deal all-stars in Bautista and Encarnacion. No, Demar and Kyle aren't even close to them.

I'm looking forward to see how Lowry plays this season. He lost weight and looks at his most fit since joining the Raps. But the most I wanna see would be the change in the offense with the ball movement similar to what they had 2 seasons ago or an even better offense. No more Micro ball (5 guard lineup) with iso-only offense!!!

[Wild-ling#1]

SI's Top 100 for 2016 is out and highlights some of the criticisms made in this forum, in putting him at 61.:

http://www.si.com/nba/top-100-nba-pl...cetype=default

"Last year, DeMar DeRozan’s No. 61 ranking on this list inspired passionate disapproval from Raptors fans, given his 2014 All-Star selection, his 22.7 PPG average, and his first career postseason appearance. But if anything, SI.com overrated the 26-year-old, whose 2014–15 season was defined by an unfortunate groin injury, ghastly shooting numbers, and an embarrassing first-round sweep."

[Wild-ling#1]

It's almost as if we need a dedicated thread just for DeMar...

Maybe we need two threads. One for "supporters" and one for "skeptics".

[Wild-ling#1]

[DeMar's improved 3-pt. shooting ]It isnt an improvement mate, its a return to the median, he shot worse than his career average from three before the allstar break, and shot a little better after...the end result is the same.

You can flip a coin 10 times and that coin might lant on heads every single time, but after 100 flips it will end up very close to 50-50.

no one has ever said there was no other way to get it done, only there is one most logical way to do so.

There is no "most logical" way to do anything. Something is either logical or it isn't.

Similarly, while it's unlikely that a coin will turn up "heads" 100 times in a row, it's possible. These statements are mis-applied renderings of logic and probability. They're false.

You can argue that it's unlikely that DeMar will improve this season. But that's all. You can also point out how difficult it would be difficult to keep DeMar and land KD ... but that's all.

But, in sports, we follow and watch to see people do spectacular things. Players ... and GM's too. Especially those we like.

That's why we all remember Yogi Berra's "It ain't over 'til it's over".

Which is only a reformulation of the expression "Don't count me out". Same thing ... but a boxing reference.

You can give up on DeMar. But it's giving up early on him. That's illogical. And I'm not gonna count him - or Masai - out.