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Article: Ujiri Resting Heavily On Maintaining The Status Quo

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  • Snooch
    replied
    Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
    It was you who brought Gerald Henderson in to the conversation, Snooch. He has a PER of 13.29 vs. DeMar's 17.49, of course. I don't want to start a "stats war". But it's not simply a given that he'd be an adequate replacement, as you have opined.

    And sure, the finances get trickier if you want to keep DeMar and sign a star FA. But I believe it is actually possible. And you're too regular a participant here to need me to re-hash all the personal and professional reasons why DeMar might be a lure to top-tier FA's. I would only insist it's possible. No?

    And Skywalker was clearly referring to next year's team, on a fair reading of his remarks, and the defensive-minded departures and acquisitions in the off-season, when he spoke of a "more balanced team". While you were offered only "yesterday's news", in response.

    And as for anything having been made "abundantly clear, over and over", well , I think we all know that you have advanced similar opinions often enough. But that does not mean you are offering the only relevant facts. Or that we must all simply accept them as such. Would you disagree with this, too?
    I am glad that you do not want to get into a stats war, cause if oyu are going to start off immediately with Per it would not end well for you.

    And he would be an adequate replacement, as then our system would finally shift and be more of a team oriented for a season, and then henderson would be off the books and we would have max space for 2 free agents in 2017.

    You are having trouble looking past 2 words. Demar and Henderson, and a failing to grasp the bigger picture and the bigger idea.

    It has been discussed ad naseum here about the true value demar brings to the basketball court and where it actually lies in terms of available replacements. Henderson at 6 million for 1 year IS BETTER than Demar at 23 million for 4 or 5 years.

    Perhaps Demar proves his entire career statistically incorrect and comes out next season with a lower usage, higher shooting percentages and performs like a prime Jordan, hell maybe he performs like a prime Monta Ellis, but looking at the entirety of his career I would say it is more than safe to assume that he will maintain his career averages.....a high usage low efficiency scoring guard.

    In regards to Demar Luring potential targets....that is grossly overblown,....Why would Demar be a lure to potential FAs exactly again? Is it because he needs 18 shots a game? because he shoots sub 30% from 3? Because he needs a system designed to maximize his talents?

    In regards to finances, damn straight it gets trickier cause now you are dumping a minimum of 3 guys in an effort to gain capspace to sign a fa, then you are going well over the cap to resign demar, then you still need to sign more player to complete roster. No, it is far more reasonable to suggest that a true 3 and d wing, an allstar - MVP talks PG, an young and upcoming center, loads of depth and loads of flexibility is a far more attractive incentive for a free agent. no? It is possible for me to go to the moon.....

    And on the last part, no need to get all snippy, if you cannot defend your opinion on a matter and feel the need to attempt to beat your own dead horse...you have offered nothing of value in response to what you quoted of me other than a veiled attempt at finger waving. I provide statistical support for my claims, and you provide closed ended questions as an attempt to debate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Axel
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    That's beside the current point about whether we can reasonably expect DeMar to improve. That said, we really don't know how Masai is approaching this free agency, maybe he can operate like the Spurs did with LA, shedding contracts when it was clear the deal was done, or maybe it's time to forego free agency in favour of the trade market, or aim for 2017. All I know is an improved DeMar, with only his cap hold counting against the cap, is going to be more of a draw to prospective free agents than the likes of Gerald Henderson.
    Well considering that this is a thread about Masai and his strategy (and not just another DD debate), I thought it was appropriate to ask the question, so I'll ask it again.

    If you are Masai, do you:

    Option 1 - keep the rest of the team intact and sacrifice DD (the risk would be he walks while we chase KD) to be able to show up to your sit down with KD with cap space in hand?

    Option 2 - keep DD and go to the sit down with KD with a long list of trade ideas to moves players X, Y, Z to clear cap space (at the risk of gutting the team since return in those deals would be less than typical market value)?

    For me, Option 1 is light years better than Option 2.

    Option 1 makes more sense for your lineup (KD replaces DD's scoring vs a bunch of players/positions/skills).

    Option 1 makes more sense from a sales point - "we insert you here with these players and this system" is more sound than "we put you here after trading these guys and hope to get player X & Y in return with player Z as a fall back".

    If Option 1 utterly fails, then we sign a Batum/Henderson type and still have a full roster ready for next cap season target (Ibaka).

    Leave a comment:


  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    Snooch wrote: View Post
    like planet mars said, unless you are an allworld talent like Lebron or KD, you arent going to be drawing free agents to a team.

    Our team is attrative due to money, city, management, flexibility, depth and lowry and carrol before demar( speaking of the hypothetical KD)
    Speculation, especially questionable with Carroll playing the same position as KD.

    Leave a comment:


  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    The McDonald's all-american team doesn't have many stars on it. Here is who he played with:
    Tyrke Evans, Kemba Walker, Ed Davis, Tyler Zeler, Al-Farouq Aminu, Iman Shumpert, Brandon Jennings, Greg Monroe, Jrue Holiday

    I don't think Shumpert or Aminu has much clout and he may have just as much as Evans.

    With regards to Team USA which was a great accomplishment.. Amir just played with those guys as well this summer.

    And the all-star game was one time. Even David Lee made that team (twice). Is he a guy that people flock to play with?

    I'm just not seeing the draw personally. He's a good kid but so was Amir and he was just let go for nothing. Amir produced better than DD did as well (if you look at the stats).
    Everything I've seen and read indicates that DeMar is perceived as a well-liked star player amongst other player, on another level relative to the likes of Amir and Lee in terms of respect. Maybe that counts for a lot and maybe it doesn't, in terms of recruitment, but it sure doesn't hurt.

    I tend to think it's a piece of the puzzle, and that this team would have less caché without him. I could be wrong, and it would obviously depend on the player being recruited, what we got back in trade for DeMar, etc.

    I think one would look at this iteration and think "well-balanced team, ready to compete, lots of upside". That gets magnified if we play the season well, and diminished if we crap the bed. I, for one, am betting on both the team and DeMar playing well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snooch
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    Because he's a star-calibre player that gets along well with, and seems to be respected by, other stars of the league - has played with them in McDonald's All-American, Team USA, Allstar games, etc.
    like planet mars said, unless you are an allworld talent like Lebron or KD, you arent going to be drawing free agents to a team.

    Our team is attrative due to money, city, management, flexibility, depth and lowry and carrol before demar( speaking of the hypothetical KD)

    Leave a comment:


  • Snooch
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    I thought all of this started with you proposing a hypothetical of dumping DeMar and picking up Henderson on the cheap, no?

    DeMar's cap hold is relatively low, under 15 mill. This means you can dump other contracts to get under the cap if you wanted to retain him. If he was signed immediately for 20+ mill, that would make it very difficult to get far enough under the cap.
    No, I said that this team would be better off in the long term with someone like Henderson for 1 year than by having Demar at an over 20 million dollar contract for 4 or 5 years.

    For what Demar brings he can be replaced by lesser costing players and then any possible slck being picked up by the remaining teammates.

    I did not look to start a demar vs henderson debate, merely showing that demars potential contract coupled with his actual production is a dangerous combination.

    Henderson at 6 million is better for the team than Demars caphold at 15 million.

    Demars caphold alone would mean shedding cujo and ppat, or ppat and ross, or cujo and 2 or 3 youngguys.

    so I do not see any value in trying to add to demar by gutting the roster. Especially since demar is a high usage low efficiency player. It does not matter what you think will happen in the future, the smart play is to alway go with what you know.....and what we know is what I posted.
    Last edited by Snooch; Tue Sep 1, 2015, 07:46 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snooch
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    And who says he needs to have such a high usage with this team, or the team we would have after major consolidation trades?
    his playing style dictates that in order to maintain any sort of value on the basketball court that his usage needs to be that way while being surrounded by defensive players that can maximize his offensive opportunities while minimizing his deficiencies on defense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wild-ling#1
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    But our hopes aren't dead set on 2016 free agency. After this well-played offseason we are set up to compete with a balanced team, and we have tons of trade assets and assets for internal development.
    Snooch wrote: View Post
    why are you know comparing Demar to henderson?

    to try and make Demar look better?

    When in actuality, Henderson in the same role, would most likely produce at least equally to that of Demar.

    And Demar with his caphold, would not be a draw to any free agents, because Demars caphold take away all capspace.

    I thought this has been made abundantly clear over and over.
    Snooch wrote: View Post
    any team with Demar having 30% of total usage is not a complete and balanced team mate.
    It was you who brought Gerald Henderson in to the conversation, Snooch. He has a PER of 13.29 vs. DeMar's 17.49, of course. I don't want to start a "stats war". But it's not simply a given that he'd be an adequate replacement, as you have opined.

    And sure, the finances get trickier if you want to keep DeMar and sign a star FA. But I believe it is actually possible. And you're too regular a participant here to need me to re-hash all the personal and professional reasons why DeMar might be a lure to top-tier FA's. I would only insist it's possible. No?

    And Skywalker was clearly referring to next year's team, on a fair reading of his remarks, and the defensive-minded departures and acquisitions in the off-season, when he spoke of a "more balanced team". While you were offered only "yesterday's news", in response.

    And as for anything having been made "abundantly clear, over and over", well , I think we all know that you have advanced similar opinions often enough. But that does not mean you are offering the only relevant facts. Or that we must all simply accept them as such. Would you disagree with this, too?

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    Because he's a star-calibre player that gets along well with, and seems to be respected by, other stars of the league - has played with them in McDonald's All-American, Team USA, Allstar games, etc.
    The McDonald's all-american team doesn't have many stars on it. Here is who he played with:
    Tyrke Evans, Kemba Walker, Ed Davis, Tyler Zeler, Al-Farouq Aminu, Iman Shumpert, Brandon Jennings, Greg Monroe, Jrue Holiday

    I don't think Shumpert or Aminu has much clout and he may have just as much as Evans.

    With regards to Team USA which was a great accomplishment.. Amir just played with those guys as well this summer.

    And the all-star game was one time. Even David Lee made that team (twice). Is he a guy that people flock to play with?

    I'm just not seeing the draw personally. He's a good kid but so was Amir and he was just let go for nothing. Amir produced better than DD did as well (if you look at the stats).

    Leave a comment:


  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    Why do you think DD is a big draw for free agents? I've heard that before but never really understood why he'd be a big draw. Amir was let go and he loved Toronto maybe even more than DD did/does.
    Because he's a star-calibre player that gets along well with, and seems to be respected by, other stars of the league - has played with them in McDonald's All-American, Team USA, Allstar games, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    Snooch wrote: View Post
    why are you know comparing Demar to henderson?

    to try and make Demar look better?

    When in actuality, Henderson in the same role, would most likely produce at least equally to that of Demar.

    And Demar with his caphold, would not be a draw to any free agents, because Demars caphold take away all capspace.

    I thought this has been made abundantly clear over and over.
    I thought all of this started with you proposing a hypothetical of dumping DeMar and picking up Henderson on the cheap, no?

    DeMar's cap hold is relatively low, under 15 mill. This means you can dump other contracts to get under the cap if you wanted to retain him. If he was signed immediately for 20+ mill, that would make it very difficult to get far enough under the cap.

    Leave a comment:


  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    Snooch wrote: View Post
    any team with Demar having 30% of total usage is not a complete and balanced team mate.
    And who says he needs to have such a high usage with this team, or the team we would have after major consolidation trades?
    Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Tue Sep 1, 2015, 07:02 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snooch
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    But our hopes aren't dead set on 2016 free agency. After this well-played offseason we are set up to compete with a balanced team, and we have tons of trade assets and assets for internal development.
    any team with Demar having 30% of total usage is not a complete and balanced team mate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snooch
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    That's beside the current point about whether we can reasonably expect DeMar to improve. That said, we really don't know how Masai is approaching this free agency, maybe he can operate like the Spurs did with LA, shedding contracts when it was clear the deal was done, or maybe it's time to forego free agency in favour of the trade market, or aim for 2017. All I know is an improved DeMar, with only his cap hold counting against the cap, is going to be more of a draw to prospective free agents than the likes of Gerald Henderson.
    why are you know comparing Demar to henderson?

    to try and make Demar look better?

    When in actuality, Henderson in the same role, would most likely produce at least equally to that of Demar.

    And Demar with his caphold, would not be a draw to any free agents, because Demars caphold take away all capspace.

    I thought this has been made abundantly clear over and over.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    That's beside the current point about whether we can reasonably expect DeMar to improve. That said, we really don't know how Masai is approaching this free agency, maybe he can operate like the Spurs did with LA, shedding contracts when it was clear the deal was done, or maybe it's time to forego free agency in favour of the trade market, or aim for 2017. All I know is an improved DeMar, with only his cap hold counting against the cap, is going to be more of a draw to prospective free agents than the likes of Gerald Henderson.
    Why do you think DD is a big draw for free agents? I've heard that before but never really understood why he'd be a big draw. Amir was let go and he loved Toronto maybe even more than DD did/does.

    Leave a comment:

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