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DeMar DeRozan: PER Over/Under & What if...

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  • DeMar DeRozan: PER Over/Under & What if...

    I don't think I'm the only one jonesing for some DeMar content, and it's the calm before the storm around, but here's a thread that's intended to be more fun, and reflective, than it is heated. We're going to make predictions, engage in a little thought experimentation, then share.


    1) Over/Under for DeMar hitting a PER of 20. - 18.4 was the high for his career before dropping to 17.4 last year, so 20 sounds like a reasonable projection for improvement in a contract season. We all know that PER isn't the grand puba of stats, but it will have to suffice - for scoring-wings I think it does the job.

    2) What if he achieves the opposite outcome from your prediction? - For these hypothetical purposes, the one further assumption (you can apply this to your prediction in step 1 if you like) is that his usage comes down from the lofty 28% of the last two years, even if not as much as you/we might like - let's settle on 25%, a 'round' number and somewhat reasonable. How would this change, if at all, how you view DeMar, and how to best utilize him as an asset?

    3) Share, elaborate, discuss.



    For me:

    I predict he'll break the PER threshold of 20. He'll have his 3-ball going (31.5%+ here we come). He can utilize his expanded game leveraging a better team around him (assists, steals, rebounds). He's in his prime now and he's (finally) got a team around him to open up the floor and get him better shots (shooting efficiencies). I do see his usage coming down on a better team, the question is how much and how it effects his PER numbers.

    If he's under 20, with lower usage, it's not the end of the world if he ups his game in other areas as I expect. However, and this is the case if he's over 20 as well, you do look at trade options. A 19PER DeMar + some of the other goodies is a very solid trade package that could entice the likes of Atlanta. We've got a deep enough team, together with free agency options, to make our top players expendable.

    At 18 or 19 with on a lower usage and decent D, I'm still not inclined to actively hope he walks in free agency. For me, it'd still either KD, MAYBE Horford, or try my best to retain DeMar for something reasonable (20 mill might be the threshold you have to set if you're Masai) and keep our rich asset-base (JJ, Ross, Scola, BB, Nando, etc) intact/consolidated through trade - i.e. competing 'above the cap'.

    What say you?
    31
    Over
    22.58%
    7
    Under
    77.42%
    24
    Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Thu Sep 24, 2015, 08:05 PM.

  • #2
    It would be interesting if improvement in this rating was discussed in his season ending evaluation.

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    • #3
      rightsideup wrote: View Post
      It would be interesting if improvement in this rating was discussed in his season ending evaluation.
      Not sure what you mean.

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      • #4
        It is implied that every player gets a exit interview after seasons end and since de mar went backwards in performance in this stat I am just wondering if the organization would be looking for ways to help him improve in this regard as I am sure if he did it would improve the team performance as a whole.

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        • #5
          Only one vote so far (aside from myself)? Is the following exercise too challenging or something? At least vote, for fuck's sake.

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          • #6
            He was injured last year and has a contract year coming up. I voted he will improve

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            • #7
              On mobile right now and can't see the poll, but I'll vote later. In the meantime, I'll take the under.

              If his usage drops I expect a further drop in his PER - PER rewards high usage low efficiency shooting. He's never shown much in way of better efficiency regardless of his usage so I doubt he makes up enough of the difference to increase his PER in that case.

              If think a more interesting question is whether he posts an above average WS/48. Masai has been shown to value high WS players, and DD has only broken .100 once - though that year (his all star year) he was well above that (.140). I don't know where I would land there - I'd be predicting a number very close to that average value.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • #8
                DanH wrote: View Post
                On mobile right now and can't see the poll, but I'll vote later. In the meantime, I'll take the under.

                If his usage drops I expect a further drop in his PER - PER rewards high usage low efficiency shooting. He's never shown much in way of better efficiency regardless of his usage so I doubt he makes up enough of the difference to increase his PER in that case.

                If think a more interesting question is whether he posts an above average WS/48. Masai has been shown to value high WS players, and DD has only broken .100 once - though that year (his all star year) he was well above that (.140). I don't know where I would land there - I'd be predicting a number very close to that average value.
                A usage of 26 is still pretty high though, so a solid uptick in efficiency could cover the difference. For example, when James Harden broke the 20-PER barrier he only had a usage of 21.6%. Of course his TS% of 66% would be difficult for DeMar to equal.

                Also noticed that Wade's WS/48 dropped to .086 last season. Not that DeMar was much better at .09. Which one would you bet on rebounding at their respective ages though?

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                • #9
                  Can you explain how Player Efficiency Rating is a stat that reward low efficiency? I'm struggling to see it
                  A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Okay, I voted for the under. But I'd be happy to peg it at just under ... meaning 18.5 to 19.5. I'd really like to take Dan's bet, though, as regards WS/48. I'd take the "over" there ... I see him going a little over his previous high of .140. In a way, I guess I think this is a bit of transitional year for him. I'm hoping he will adjust his game, during the course of the year, while the team benefits ... rather than him just throwing up shots to attract attention (sorta' thing). I do believe he could go over ... that's not the issue, exactly ...

                    (Not ground-breaking analysis, I know )

                    I felt a little disloyal going "under". But I'm hoping for some improvement from Demar, a great season from the Raps and some kind of financial wizardry, recruitment miracle ... to get us whatever we think need in 2016 ... whether that's KD, Horford ... or a manipulation of picks/players/prospects to get us a stud in the draft, or ... whatever.
                    Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Thu Sep 24, 2015, 08:52 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Anyone care to explain how Win Shares are calculated, or what they represent? DeMar saw quite the drop from .14 to .09, but I see no reason to think his career peaked in 13/14 at the age of 24.
                      Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Thu Sep 24, 2015, 07:51 PM.

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                      • #12
                        e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
                        Can you explain how Player Efficiency Rating is a stat that reward low efficiency? I'm struggling to see it
                        I think the point is that the stat generally rewards volume. That said, greater efficiency at the same volume does result in an even higher measure.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          DanH wrote: View Post
                          On mobile right now and can't see the poll, but I'll vote later. In the meantime, I'll take the under.

                          If his usage drops I expect a further drop in his PER - PER rewards high usage low efficiency shooting. He's never shown much in way of better efficiency regardless of his usage so I doubt he makes up enough of the difference to increase his PER in that case.

                          If think a more interesting question is whether he posts an above average WS/48. Masai has been shown to value high WS players, and DD has only broken .100 once - though that year (his all star year) he was well above that (.140). I don't know where I would land there - I'd be predicting a number very close to that average value.
                          I think you meant PER rewards low usage, high efficiency, like Rudy Gobert (21 PER) for instance. PER punishes high usage, mid-low efficiency guys lke Nick Young (14 PER), who is almost DD's doppelganger. PER also rewards rebounds, so for a wing like DD it might be better to USG with ORTG, as the measuring stick.

                          ORTG > 110 + USG > 25 as the benchmark.

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                          • #14
                            Over

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                            • #15
                              SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                              Only one vote so far (aside from myself)? Is the following exercise too challenging or something? At least vote, for fuck's sake.
                              Ha, chill bud, people are still not fully engaged yet.

                              I took the under, but I think it'll be real close. I think he'll work hard for his next contract, but at the same time, none of the roster changes or coach changes give me much hope that the fundamental nature of his game will change much at all. I expect to see him take plenty of questionable shots, but still be value-creating as he draws attention and helps the offense run overall.

                              I did a screen for some attainable DeMar stats: 19ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.5apg, and included PER so we could scan to see how other players with those metrics shook out.
                              http://bkref.com/tiny/wptPy

                              The key one to catch my eye was Rudy Gay. Rudy had better percentages, rebounds, assists, blocks, and points, but slightly more turnovers, slightly fewer steals, and fewer free throws drawn... and he still only got to a 19.7. Those numbers, including a 55.6% TS, feel like an upper limit for what we can hope for from DeMar.
                              http://bkref.com/tiny/3LIeb

                              So again, I'll say under 20, but I would be very pleased with '14-15 Rudy-like production. That's not a max contract player, but a useful one nonetheless.

                              Comment

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