DeMar DeRozan: PER Over/Under & What if...

[DogeLover1234]

Right, and that's where the shift needs to happen. We aren't so dependent on him anymore and can afford to use him a little more as a facilitator and as a(n occasional) 3-point shooter. It won't be an overnight shift, but I tend to think that DeMar is both capable and willing - he's more coachable than we give him credit for, but admittedly one does has to wonder how things will play out in this, a contract season.

Are you trying to say that he can now develop his passing and shooting more or than he can play as a facilitator/shooter rather than a scorer? Maybe i'm wrong, but ive never seen him as a good facilitator. He tends to over dribble and pass as a last resort. Part of this is for sure on the coach and other players but at the same time I don't think DD helps in "creating" shots. There is a reason opposing teams can make a defensive game plan saying that DD rarely passes and that they can just force contested shots, and get away with it. If he isn't going to be an above average shooter, i think he needs to be a better facilitator.

[OldSkoolCool]

The difference between what DD has done in the past and what many of us would like him to do this season is monumental.

Realistically, DD won't change enough (if he changes his game at all) to sway the opinions of those who would like him to change his game.

His win shares and efficiency would greatly benefit if he did, and Ujiri does seem to favor those...

But, I think this season is going to be moment of deja vu for many fans, and merely a formality as his last season as a Raptor...

[SkywalkerAC]

Are you trying to say that he can now develop his passing and shooting more or than he can play as a facilitator/shooter rather than a scorer? Maybe i'm wrong, but ive never seen him as a good facilitator. He tends to over dribble and pass as a last resort. Part of this is for sure on the coach and other players but at the same time I don't think DD helps in "creating" shots. There is a reason opposing teams can make a defensive game plan saying that DD rarely passes and that they can just force contested shots, and get away with it. If he isn't going to be an above average shooter, i think he needs to be a better facilitator.

I don't think I was unclear. I think he can be a better facilitator (this season) than we've seen.

[DogeLover1234]

I don't think I was unclear. I think he can be a better facilitator (this season) than we've seen.

We will see. I'm not ready to make such a claim. I don't think Casey will be alright with turnovers in the regular season, even early in the year, which will make it difficult for both DD and JV to get used to facilitating more. After playing as scorers who pass as a last resort to becoming better facilitators will require an adjustment period, and I don't have faith in Casey to look past the inevitable turnovers.

[SkywalkerAC]

We will see. I'm not ready to make such a claim. I don't think Casey will be alright with turnovers in the regular season, even early in the year, which will make it difficult for both DD and JV to get used to facilitating more. After playing as scorers who pass as a last resort to becoming better facilitators will require an adjustment period, and I don't have faith in Casey to look past the inevitable turnovers.

A big part has to be a culture change from the whole team, from coaching staff on down to Delon with the 3rd unit/905. Last year chucking up the shot and looking for the foul became contagious; that has to be reversed to where finding the open man becomes contagious. That means DeMar, JV, and even Kyle, all being more-willing passers.

Will Casey, his revamped coaching staff, and Carroll champion this? Will losing Lou help reverse the trend? It doesn't have to be DeMar making snazzy, high-risk assists leading to dunks, but everyone, perhaps him most of all, have to give it up (not so) good shots in favour of great shots.

[Axel]

A big part has to be a culture change from the whole team, from coaching staff on down to Delon with the 3rd unit/905. Last year chucking up the shot and looking for the foul became contagious; that has to be reversed to where finding the open man becomes contagious. That means DeMar, JV, and even Kyle, all being more-willing passers.

Will Casey, his revamped coaching staff, and Carroll champion this? Will losing Lou help reverse the trend? It doesn't have to be DeMar making snazzy, high-risk assists leading to dunks, but everyone, perhaps him most of all, have to give it up (not so) good shots in favour of great shots.

But does Casey, DD, etc understand what a good shot is? DD has always had excessive volume from midrange while Casey's logic for bad shots last year was "shots we normally make".

Neither has demonstrated much in this regard, so solely relying on faith.

[Puffer]

Interesting discussion on DeMar and what he needs to this year:

"JF: I think we’ll be able to have a much clearer picture of who DeRozan is after this season. I’ve always thought, based on his skill level, he has the potential to be so much more than a second tier shooting guard. However, based on how he generates his offense, he’s not fully harnessing his ability. If the Raptors do choose to open things up this year and play smaller, I think DeRozan will be the greatest benefactor and the Raptors in turn will settle in as a competitor in the East. If not….well….he still scores 20 points a game and the cap is going up so someone is going to pay him (he has a player option worth about $9.5 million that he almost certainly won’t pick up). It’s just a question of whether or not the team giving him the money will be a competitor looking for a continually evolving talent, or a bottom feeder needing some empty points.

JH: Definitely something to keep an eye on going forward. For better or worse, the short term future of the Toronto Raptors is greatly intertwined with the on court development of DeMar Derozan. A pretty box score won’t mean much if the Raptors find themselves sitting at home during the second round of the playoffs again."

http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/10/07...demar-derozan/

[slaw]

Given your assertion, what would be your conclusion why DD makes such bad decisions after such a long time with the system: the program sucks, or the player can't grasp the system?

Or the player is just limited in what he can do? That's the simplest explanation. Players, especially by the time they reach the NBA, basically are what they are. Guys might improve around the margins and add certain skills but they don't fundamentally transform. Coaches, trainers, etc. can help refine skills and improve a player's game or help a guy get to his level if he's underachieving but they can't raise his ceiling or undo his physical and mental limitations.

I think a big part of the frustration fans have with guys like Derozan is that you look at the stuff he does well and say, "Well, if he can do that, why isn't he a better passer? A better playmaker? Why doesn't he just do it?" And, then, more frustratingly, you see a few games where he actually does drive and kick or dump it off and, so, you know that he is capable of it. But. BUT. Then it is gone again. Why? Cause in the game, when things are going 10,000 miles an hour and decisions need to be made in split seconds - he can't do it. At least not all the time. That's why he's Demar Derozan and not Lebron James.

[slaw]

The one thing that should be noted here in this discussion is that two years ago Derozan did change his game.

In his All-Star year, he went to the line 630 times (!!!!!), which was 200 times more than the previous season and 300 times more than 11-12. A massive difference. He also shot 210 threes, the same number he shot in the previous two seasons combined. He also had 100 more assists (1.5 more per game) and his AST% went from 12% to 19%.

Last season was a step back (some of it injury related and some not) and he's not a great playmaker but, even in the pedestrian 14-15 season, his AST% didn't collapse and he took fewer FGAs per game. He's never going to be the player that a lot of posters on here want him to be but simply getting back to taking more threes as he did two seasons ago while maintaining his AST numbers, together with shooting at his career percentages (44 vs. 41 last year) will make him much more effective.

[Bandit]

The one thing that should be noted here in this discussion is that two years ago Derozan did change his game.

In his All-Star year, he went to the line 630 times (!!!!!), which was 200 times more than the previous season and 300 times more than 11-12. A massive difference. He also shot 210 threes, the same number he shot in the previous two seasons combined. He also had 100 more assists (1.5 more per game) and his AST% went from 12% to 19%.

Last season was a step back (some of it injury related and some not) and he's not a great playmaker but, even in the pedestrian 14-15 season, his AST% didn't collapse and he took fewer FGAs per game. He's never going to be the player that a lot of posters on here want him to be but simply getting back to taking more threes as he did two seasons ago while maintaining his AST numbers, together with shooting at his career percentages (44 vs. 41 last year) will make him much more effective.

I think that's what pretty much all of us want, I know it's what I want to see. Pass the ball in established sets, drive to the rim, and turn maybe 2 of those long twos a game into corner threes and I would be perfectly happy. Its such a small alteration to his game and the sets they run for him that the failure to see it on a regular basis drives me crazy

[LJ2]

I think it's going to be a tough year for the DD haters this season. With the way the team was shaped this past off season with a few of our main scorers departing, DD becomes an even bigger focal point on offence. Then you hae the acquisiton of so many defensive players around DD to wipe out his mistakes. It's going to be DeMar being Demar this season because his green light to shoot may have just gotten greener.

[Snooch]

I think it's going to be a tough year for the DD haters this season. With the way the team was shaped this past off season with a few of our main scorers departing, DD becomes an even bigger focal point on offence. Then you hae the acquisiton of so many defensive players around DD to wipe out his mistakes. It's going to be DeMar being Demar this season because his green light to shoot may have just gotten greener.

I would certainly hope not, when we have just signed 2 players who are far more efficient in their offense than not only Demar but the offense that left the team (lou)

[golden]

I think it's going to be a tough year for the DD haters this season. With the way the team was shaped this past off season with a few of our main scorers departing, DD becomes an even bigger focal point on offence. Then you hae the acquisiton of so many defensive players around DD to wipe out his mistakes. It's going to be DeMar being Demar this season because his green light to shoot may have just gotten greener.

Casey referred to all of the incoming players as "two-way" players, not strictly defensive, except for Biyombo. That's actually a positive, meaning that Casey believes he can/should utilize them on offense.

But you could definitely be right. It's pretty easy to envision Casey reverting back to DD/Lowry ISO when the Raps hit a rough patch on offense.

[SkywalkerAC]

I think it's going to be a tough year for the DD haters this season. With the way the team was shaped this past off season with a few of our main scorers departing, DD becomes an even bigger focal point on offence. Then you hae the acquisiton of so many defensive players around DD to wipe out his mistakes. It's going to be DeMar being Demar this season because his green light to shoot may have just gotten greener.

He may not be gunning away/lighting it up from 3, but he certainly looks pretty willing to kick out to shooters behind the 3-point line. I think we've become a better two-way team, and a big part of that is being a better kick-out-and-shoot-the-3 team. I've been of the mind that it would be DeMar shooting some of those threes, but if he can get it to our better shooters, more the better.

Basically, I think we'll see a lot of 3s made this season, in spite of whether DeMar can/does shoot them.

[LJ2]

Casey referred to all of the incoming players as "two-way" players, not strictly defensive, except for Biyombo. That's actually a positive, meaning that Casey believes he can/should utilize them on offense.

But you could definitely be right. It's pretty easy to envision Casey reverting back to DD/Lowry ISO when the Raps hit a rough patch on offense.

It's preseason and you don't want to read to much into it, but usually if there is a change to someones game that they have been working on over the summer you wold see it because they finally get to put what they've been practicing, into play. Havn't really seen anything new from DD, thus far. Shot isn't dropping at a seemingly higher clip, still taking difficult turn around/fade away shots, still not looking to create for team mates. If he could just learn to use his ability to penetrate to create for others I think he would get so many more open opportunities himself. But right now defenders just have to crowd him because they know he won't give it up until he is forced to pick up his dribble. Of course it could just be that everyone on the team is just standing around and not creating an opening for him to pass which is the the same problem which plagues JV's passing game, lol.