Has Casey finally learned?

[psrs1]

You're never going to have consensus on a message board - that's why some threads become 3000+ posts. Consensus is meaningless.

Instead, you should be paying closer attention to who was actually right (i.e. posters like CRF, Axel, mcHappy, OldSkool, etc...), the cause of the offense failing in the playoffs (i.e. Casey ISO heavy system), and why the coaching staff couldn't see the same thing (...instead of doubling down on ISO). Those are the key points of discussion here.

It's also very important to remember that those "negative" posters, were forecasting that iceberg, when the Raps were stream-rolling the Eastern conference, and still ended up with a top 5 offense. That was an unpopular opinion to have at the time. Nobody's perfect, obviously, but when I see those posters (and a few others, sorry I forgot mention) point out basketball related stuff, I generally hold their opinion in higher regard.

I vote for McHappy to be hired as our next head coach! I wonder what posters would think if we get off to a really slow start and DC is fired and Nick Nurse were to take over. That could be an interesting scenario this season.

[Mess]

You're never going to have consensus on a message board - that's why some threads become 3000+ posts. Consensus is meaningless.

Instead, you should be paying closer attention to who was actually right (i.e. posters like CRF, Axel, mcHappy, OldSkool, etc...), the cause of the offense failing in the playoffs (i.e. Casey ISO heavy system), and why the coaching staff couldn't see the same thing (...instead of doubling down on ISO). Those are the key points of discussion here.

It's also very important to remember that those "negative" posters, were forecasting that iceberg, when the Raps were stream-rolling the Eastern conference, and still ended up with a top 5 offense. That was an unpopular opinion to have at the time. Nobody's perfect, obviously, but when I see those posters (and a few others, sorry I forgot mention) point out basketball related stuff, I generally hold their opinion in higher regard.

It's completely speculative but I wonder how a middle of the pack offense that stays consistently middle of the pack in the postseason would have done. May have been enough to compete with Washington but they probably would have played Cleveland.

But that's assuming the ISO heavy system on one end affected the defensive end. And you'd have to agree with Casey there...it's a Catch 22.

[Wild-ling#1]

You're never going to have consensus on a message board - that's why some threads become 3000+ posts. Consensus is meaningless.

Instead, you should be paying closer attention to who was actually right (i.e. posters like CRF, Axel, mcHappy, OldSkool, etc...), the cause of the offense failing in the playoffs (i.e. Casey ISO heavy system), and why the coaching staff couldn't see the same thing (...instead of doubling down on ISO). Those are the key points of discussion here.

It's also very important to remember that those "negative" posters, were forecasting that iceberg, when the Raps were stream-rolling the Eastern conference, and still ended up with a top 5 offense. That was an unpopular opinion to have at the time. Nobody's perfect, obviously, but when I see those posters (and a few others, sorry I forgot mention) point out basketball related stuff, I generally hold their opinion in higher regard.

Yeah, well ... I went back and read the articles/posts as suggested. Good, right? No? I'm obviously a poor/careless reader, you say? Well ... thanks!

Although I was/am aware that consensus isn't easily/often achieved on a forum, I wouldn't say it's "meaningless". Anyway, I meant that there wasn't a consensus, on the thread, among those who identified the issues of which you speak. Mike Prada, whom you linked for example, clearly and in detail identified personnel challenges that the coaching staff (any coaching staff) would struggle to overcome. But did not suggest that the coaches were simply negligent .... or "stupid".

Nevertheless I gave "props" to all for identifying concerns in advance of the down-turn. "Good read", I said. "Well done", I said. Nothing "negative".

I think the "personnel limitations" point has to be valid, though. There are (good) reasons why all the RR posters you've mentioned are so very eager to chuck our current all-star, A.S.A.P., and grab a different all-star(s) ... a Horford, a KD, somebody/(anybody!) ... isn't there? Same reason the whole league held their breath, during the Aldridge sweepstakes, right? Will again in 2016 ...

Sheesh.

Anyway, there were significant injuries in the future for the 2014 Raptors. Kyle didn't get back into shape and now admits he played poorly, later in the season. And the whole "Pressure DeRozan - they 'revert' to one-on-one play" might fairly be said to imply a number of things that may have little to do with the coaching, at least arguably and at the end of the day ...

A good doctor may be able to diagnose much .... but cure less (immediately, anyway) was/is my only essential point.

Carry on, sir.

[MACK11]

Casey learning? Haha

[S.R.]

Great article by Josh Lewenberg here about training camp.... I posted it as well in the Fire Casey thread, but i know some of you aren't gonna lug through pages.



http://www.tsn.ca/talent/raptors-to-...-camp-1.368917



So.... my question is up..... has Casey finally understood?

I may be reading into things, but really gets me is DeMar's description about basically "yeah we're moving the ball just because we're moving the ball and everybody's in the flow - nobody had to say much about it" contradicts what Casey goes on to say about a series of offensive and defensive adjustments being made by the coaching staff for this year. Sorry for bringing this back to DD, but he seems to refuse to be thoughtful about his game. He talks the same way about his shot selection - "my mentality at the three point line is to draw a foul because I know I can draw fouls, so I take a step in and I try to draw a foul." Great, except now your shot selection sucks and your efficiency sucks and your team suffers and when the point is raised you've got these "this is just what I do, I just play this way" comments. For all the other ways DeMar is a nice guy and a hard worker, these are not the types of things that you want your core players to say. You want your core players to be students of the game.

[Axel]

Has Casey finally learned?

It's completely speculative but I wonder how a middle of the pack offense that stays consistently middle of the pack in the postseason would have done. May have been enough to compete with Washington but they probably would have played Cleveland.

But that's assuming the ISO heavy system on one end affected the defensive end. And you'd have to agree with Casey there...it's a Catch 22.

My guess is that it would depend on what type of offence you run to reach that middle of the pack offence. But to speculate would involve tracing out the impacts of the offence to defence and rebounding as well. Quite the undertaking for a "general" model.

[Wild-ling#1]

I think DeMar and Carroll were talking about what happened in informal work-outs before training camp opened. Casey was talking about what they're going to be doing in camp. Which is good all-round

[Kuh]

I can't think of one thing that Casey does above average except being likeable...and if thats the case why do we just hire a "massuese" to keep the players happy.

And I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Casey appears to be above average at getting his players to like him, i.e., he is good managing player egos, and keeping people pointed in the same direction and working hard, during the emotional ups and downs of a long season.

That is an important skill. You want players to like their coach, and want to work hard for him (or her). You want them to feel like a team and back each other. From the little we see, it sounds like Toronto has a great environment and good locker room. The coach is a very important part of making sure this environment stays healthy.

And clearly Masai values this part of what Casey brings enough to tolerate the other flaws we see.

Heck, maybe part of the healthy environment we are creating is 'it's OK if you screw up, just learn from it and don't repeat it, and that goes all the way up to Masai's interactions with Casey'.

[slaw]

For quite awhile, those who questioned DC have often been met with a barrage of "you're just stupid fans" and "he's an NBA coach and you aren't" type retorts.

If fans are stupid because they aren't NBA coaches, and then an NBA coach does exactly what those stupid fans have been suggesting for several seasons, what does that make said NBA coach?

No reasonable person on here is suggesting you can't judge Casey by results, which is ridiculous and those posters have been called out numerous times by many of us (I believe we've 'liked' each others posts in this regard). But posters constantly calling Casey stupid and an idiot and claiming they know more about basketball than he does is equally ridiculous and should be called out just the same whether or not some posters want to read it or not.

[Axel]

No reasonable person on here is suggesting you can't judge Casey by results, which is ridiculous and those posters have been called out numerous times by many of us (I believe we've 'liked' each others posts in this regard). But posters constantly calling Casey stupid and an idiot and claiming they know more about basketball than he does is equally ridiculous and should be called out just the same whether or not some posters want to read it or not.

So if it's fair to judge him when he makes an error, does it not stand to reason that we can judge him 10 times on 10 errors? Have people not done that, or are people making things up?

I also haven't seen a single post saying "I know more about basketball than Casey" except perhaps in jest. If anything, people have qualified the right to have their opinion despite "not being an NBA coach" - as that blanket condemnation seems to occur every time Casey makes a new blunder and is called on it.

As for people calling Casey "stupid" or "idiotic" - one would assume it's all meant in a relative sense. Is Casey a smart coach in comparison to his peers? That's a fair question/comment for someone to make.

[Wild-ling#1]

So if it's fair to judge him when he makes an error, does it not stand to reason that we can judge him 10 times on 10 errors? Have people not done that, or are people making things up?

I also haven't seen a single post saying "I know more about basketball than Casey" except perhaps in jest. If anything, people have qualified the right to have their opinion despite "not being an NBA coach" - as that blanket condemnation seems to occur every time Casey makes a new blunder and is called on it.

As for people calling Casey "stupid" or "idiotic" - one would assume it's all meant in a relative sense. Is Casey a smart coach in comparison to his peers? That's a fair question/comment for someone to make.

Well, I've only been on here since July. And the Casey and DeMar bashing is perfectly obvious. And relentless - it begins shortly after either of their names are mentioned.

And the language is extreme. I don't recall the "I was just kidding" excuse worked well, when I was in grade 2 or 3 ... which was long, long ago ...

And there are "posses". I don't think it helps that some of the most confirmed anti-Casey and -DeRozan posters are long-time members and even moderators. It makes sense in a way, of course - especially as no one would suggest that they are anything but sincere and knowledgeable B-ball fans. Tru' dat'. But even so ...

The forcefulness and predictability of the views are something of an affront, and a "buzz-kill", to those of us who are ... well, let's say not yet in a "camp". Maybe we could leave the "stupid", "dimwit", "retard" and "moron" language behind ...

As I once suggested, and I think anyone ought to be able to acknowledge (notwithstanding the phrasing of forum "rule 1") I think there's an "overspray" element when one repeatedly calls a view someone else is arguing - or a player or coach they like - "stupid" (etc.).

In other words, if you think you'd risk getting slugged in a bar (or a gym) for saying what you're saying the way you're saying it ... maybe you shouldn't here, either.

[mcHAPPY]

Well, I've only been on here since July. And the Casey and DeMar bashing is perfectly obvious. And relentless - it begins shortly after either of their names are mentioned.

And the language is extreme. I don't recall the "I was just kidding" excuse worked well, when I was in grade 2 or 3 ... which was long, long ago ...

And there are "posses". I don't think it helps that some of the most confirmed anti-Casey and -DeRozan posters are long-time members and even moderators. It makes sense in a way, of course - especially as no one would suggest that they are anything but sincere and knowledgeable B-ball fans. Tru' dat'. But even so ...

The forcefulness and predictability of the views are something of an affront, and a "buzz-kill", to those of us who are ... well, let's say not yet in a "camp". Maybe we could leave the "stupid", "dimwit", "retard" and "moron" language behind ...

As I once suggested, and I think anyone ought to be able to acknowledge (notwithstanding the phrasing of forum "rule 1") I think there's an "overspray" element when one repeatedly calls a view someone else is arguing - or a player or coach they like - "stupid" (etc.).

In other words, if you think you'd risk getting slugged in a bar (or a gym) for saying what you're saying the way you're saying it ... maybe you shouldn't here, either.

Just once I would like to see a direct reply to the topic and the counter points another poster has raised.... just once.

I can't even follow most of your posts. Looking at the above, what does that have to do with anything Axel wrote?

Not trying to be a dick (at least not this time). Just saying. You're clearly not stupid by any means but I lack any real desire to interact with you because I usually end up wondering what the hell is being discussed and how we got here/there.

Now I'm not usually the smartest guy in the room and I'm certainly not the smartest on these forums so I do recognize that this may just be me and my lack of comprehension skills becoming glaringly evident.

[SkywalkerAC]

Wildling's point was pretty clear to me, but I'm obviously a genius.

[Wild-ling#1]

Well, I don't want to ignore you, mcHAPPPY. But what more can I say ... ? (Particularly as whatever I do say is (always, it seems) obscure and irrelevant...)

[Wild-ling#1]

Wildling's point was pretty clear to me, but I'm obviously a genius.

Lotta' geniuses here ... just as there should be ...