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  • Apollo
    replied
    Last night's game

    when the final buzzer went, the fans stood and applauded.
    Doug Smith's Toronto Raptors blog

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  • Raptor Jesus
    replied
    Its tough to be a fan, no individual voice can be heard over the crowd... And when our collective vocabulary is Boo, DE-Fence, and AHHHASHALK*CLAP*AFHAJK*AHHHHH we don't got much to express ourselve with.

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  • ws511
    replied
    Deadallus - well, before I agree to ‘agree to disagree’, I’ll explain the premise behind saying that it is, or might be, the coach’s fault for the players throwing his own damn self under the bus.

    Basically, it comes down to it being that the coach is who he is, and the particular dynamic that exists that allows himself to be in a position where the players can actually choose to throw him under the bus ... and then do so (if that’s indeed what has happened, here**), it is only because the coach himself has allowed that dynamic to exist.

    Edit: ** I never thought the team threw Triano under the bus, btw. Still don't.

    (In other words) if Phil Jackson or Larry Brown (say) was the coach of this team, is it likely that this team could (if they wanted to) throw either of them under the bus? I could be wrong, but I have to say, no, I don’t think so.

    So ... that’s what I mean when I say ‘it’s the coach’s fault’.

    To your side note about that ESPN show on Reggie Miller ... yes, I saw first, a part of it and I commented very similarly to what you said here, somewhere in the Forum here or over on the main RR page. (Later, I had a chance to watch the whole hour and a half - I think - and it was fantastic!) After watching the part of it that I saw the first time, it made me pine for a Raptors team that would have whatever it takes to go out there on on the floor with an attitude of refusing to lose. I said as much and someone pointed out that with all the rule-changes since then, we couldn’t see that kind of basketball, even if we had the players that were willing to play that way. I dunno ... but it’s too bad, if that’s true.
    Last edited by ws511; Wed Apr 14th, 2010, 09:21 PM.

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  • Deadallus
    replied
    I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Especially if you blame the coach for being thrown under the bus, which is complete nonsense. Players hold all the power in this league and it wouldn't be the first time a team has hung a coach out to dry.

    On a side not has anyone watched the 30 for 30 on Reggie Miller. Its amazing how pu$$y this league has become in about 15 years. I miss that kind of basketball. Especially when our team tops the softy list.

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  • ws511
    replied
    Quick replies:

    nubreed000 - you have a point and I understand what you’re saying ... but I try not to focus on the “hard earned money (we spend) to watch MILLIONAIRES play ...” because I think it skews our attitude on the whole thing, making it difficult to get any satisfaction at all ... unless they sweat blood for us, leaving it all on the floor (which we would like, but it’s not realistic, I don’t think) While what you say is true, focusing on it makes us - consciously or not - ‘blame’ the players for the very large contracts that they agree to ... when really, what they’re being paid is relative to what everybody else in the league is getting paid. In other words, it’s not their fault that they make millions of dollars doing what they do ... so, I try to not make it a part of the equation.

    Vellassco - I looked at the picture, but I didn’t understand what you were referring to.

    Raptor Jesus - artfully said (I liked the “Boo has sonic elegance” - lol) ... and that’s all I got. I don’t disagree.

    Apollo - fair enough. (Once again.)

    Deadallus - I can’t disagree with what you said here. If the players really have ‘thrown the coach under the bus game after game ...’ who should be held responsible for that? I gotta say it’s on the coach. And yes, the fans here are good fans, no doubt at all, maybe among the best anywhere. I’m not blowing smoke - I’m one of the fans here, and I think all in all, we compare well with any fan bases that I’ve seen or been a part of. But if I had my druthers, we’d just boo less and cheer more ... even when we’re getting pounded ... well, to a degree, anyway. I just don’t like booing our own guys. As I see it, it’s not far from shooting ourselves in our own foot.
    Last edited by ws511; Wed Apr 14th, 2010, 07:46 AM.

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  • Deadallus
    replied
    ws511 - Everyone is to blame from the management on down, no doubt.

    Triano keeps going to his trusty lineup which includes Calderon and Jack on the floor at the same time, a lineup that has not worked one iota this season.

    Management has laid their share of eggs too, by continulally overvaluing some players (O'Neal, Turk, Calderon), and undervaluing others (Garbajosa, Bonner).

    Regardless of the mistakes everyone in the organization has made, the booing stems from an entire season of lackluster effort from the players on the court. If a coach says this is our defensive scheme, you don't whine and complain, you try to execute that to the best of your abilities and if it doesn't work then you re-evaluate. You don't throw the coach under the bus game after game by sitting on your thumbs.

    Watch any game around the NBA, fans always respond loudest to those hustle plays where a guy dives for a loose ball, jumps into the stands to keep a ball in play. Even more so than spectacular dunks which draw more ohhs and ahhs than genuine cheering and clapping.

    The sports fans in this city are rabid and passionate. You play hard and win or lose that fans will support you. You play like you're in a coma and they will let you have it, as well they should.

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  • Apollo
    replied
    I think in an age where most players pledge allegiance to the almighty dollar, how can you expect a high tolerance from the fans? Many players go where the money is. Those hired guns are brought in to perform and have a positive impact. They're going to be under the microscope and if they can't hack the pressure then they shouldn't have signed up for the mission. Shout outs to Jason Kapono and Rafer Alson.

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  • Raptor Jesus
    replied
    Today's athletes have an unnatural relationship to fans and the cities' folk they play in. Their words are filtered through personal PR agents, club spokesmen and worst of all media training/sports media dogmas.

    That which is said can fit in your shoe. That which isn't should fill the papers, but SI can ill afford to make enemies of the Bosh's of the world, and thus we get more shoe lace talk.

    Jay Triano can't blast his players as much as Jarret Jack can't out his coaching staff. There are mouths to feed between the truth and the reality. And as such the company line is fed to us the consumer. So when the steak and potato tastes suspiciously like dirt our only channels of disgust are our wallets (which never reach the player their dollars are made elsewhere) and our collective voice.

    Boo has sonic elegance, where 'We the fans fear your endorsements, corporate sponsorships and contract negotiations are standing in the way of bringing this seasons expectations to fruition' doesn't quite come off with the same simplicity and zing.
    Last edited by Raptor Jesus; Tue Apr 13th, 2010, 02:38 PM. Reason: edited for grammar

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  • Vellassco
    replied
    Look at back stage of the below picture and tell me how odd it is.



    The magic word in Professional sport is SUCCESS.

    There is huge difference btw Overachieving and Being Successful.

    I'm following your foot steps ( I'm the one of them who thinks booing is an another plus at problem side):

    - If you like to be overachieving and if you think your boos would make a difference then your target should be PLAYERS who you think they dont give their all or lazzy ones or inconsistent ones etc..

    - If you like to be successful and you are not happy from what you see then your target should be your GM or Owner Company.

    - If you like to gass out (you maybe mad at your boss or your wife whatever reason on that day) , you don't actually need rational reason to boo. Go and gass out.

    P.S: Above picture is perfect sample of what if situation of unsuccessful GM of former NBA Champion. How deadly-passionate atmosphere isn't it? And their players were giving their all at this game. I don't think it has to do with effort.
    Last edited by Vellassco; Tue Apr 13th, 2010, 06:50 PM.

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  • ws511
    replied
    Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Cheering and Booing go together.

    They are the ying and yang of a fans emotions

    Those that are against booing are probably against allowing someone to say something that they don't agree with.

    Sounds way too controlling and Orwellian for me.
    It's 'yin and yang' ... and (with all due respect) ... the rest of it is just ridiculous.

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  • nubreed000
    replied
    Some of you have summed up exactly how I feel about this. Teams like the Celtics, the Pistons when they were good, the Lakers, and so on and so forth have all been booed at one time or another for lazy, lackluster effortless play. Did those teams go home and cry? Hell no! They knew that fans expect 100% out of them each and every night. How is it that a team like the Utah Jazz, who always play their hearts out, could get a standing ovation when they lose? Because fans want effort.

    And hell yes we should feel entitled. Last I checked they're not handing out all those tickets for free. We take our hard earned money to watch MILLIONAIRES play basketball, and we expect them to put some damn effort into it, not go out there and brick shot after shot, shy away from charges, take possessions off, settle for jump shots and piss games away.

    I think fans are finally getting fed up with constant mediocrity. With constant weak-willed basketball. Whenever the team faces a little bit of adversity they run off with their tails between their legs. It's pathetic. And it's been going on for years.

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  • Buddahfan
    replied
    Cheering and Booing go together.

    They are the ying and yang of a fans emotions

    Those that are against booing are probably against allowing someone to say something that they don't agree with.

    Sounds way too controlling and Orwellian for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • ws511
    replied
    bhattmagandhi - nicely put ... and I can’t really dispute anything you said ... but I’ll comment on a couple of points, for fun.

    While I rarely follow any hockey at all these days, except for really big games (just a decision I made some time ago), it is true that Montreal Canadiens fans were spoiled rotten with Stanley Cups up until about a decade or so ago. And now having lived here for a long time, I’ve seen the difference that it’s made in the psyches of Leaf fans, as compared to Habs fans. So, yes ... I’ve felt great empathy for the frustrations of die-hard Leaf fans that I’ve known and loved over the years. And I’d even go as far as saying that they’re probably the greatest hockey fans in the world. Aside from Habs fans, of course. (jk)

    As to what Michael Jordan said ... well, just because he said it, it doesn’t necessarily make it true. It’d be pretty hard to convince me that if this team didn’t have better coaching and management, we wouldn’t be seeing a better product on the floor.

    Also, I doubt that too many out there really think of Toronto sports fans as ‘irrational’ or ‘insane’ (lol - it makes me laugh to say that) ... and really, I think, overall, those from outside our little world here (Toronto) respect in their way, the zeal that Toronto fans commonly display. Some enjoy - I suspect - kidding us ... mostly because we’re easy to kid. The way we wear it on our sleeves and all. And the ‘Canadian thing’.

    The thing about your last comment though, re ‘tired of losing (for 40+ years), hence the boos’ ... while that’s understandable on the surface of it, the players themselves (of today) who, in some cases, just got here several months ago (and even if it was several years ago), cannot possibly relate to or understand - in any way, really - the built up, pent up angst that so many here feel because of the weight that is shouldered and carried around, because of that loooong drought of champions (excluding the ’92 and ’93 Blue Jays).

    So ... while the booing might feel justified and nothing less than warranted for the fans themselves who are voicing their discontent, the players that directly feel the negative force of it have really had little or nothing to do with why it’s there. They only know that ... ‘I just missed a shot and these guys are booing the shit outta me’. They have no way of knowing or understanding that the history behind ‘those boos’ is a long and nasty one ... and that it has little to do with anything that he or they just did ... ‘cause it just happened to be the last thing put on top of the mountain of pain ... as it were. If that makes sense.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by ws511; Tue Apr 13th, 2010, 01:05 PM.

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  • bhattmagandhi
    replied
    Dear ws511,

    You couldn't be further from the truth.

    I respect your opinion and longevity in explaining your thoughts. But I'll try and make use of brevity to sum up why you're 100,000% wrong about Toronto fans.

    A) Toronto fans are extremely passionate in their relationship with Toronto sports teams. As you may know from personal relationships, if you have the capacity to love something, then you have the capability to hate it to the same extent. Hence the reason for boo-ing when a poor effort or apathetic attitude is displayed.

    B) Montreal Canadiens fans have experienced a great wealth of success in the NHL. The Canadiens by far have the most Stanley Cups in NHL history (27 if i'm not mistaken) which has an impact on the collective psyche of the fan base. In contrast Toronto fans are absolutely desperate for a championship. They haven't won a championship in professional sports since the early 90s and prior to that - the 60s. So to compare the psyche of the two fan bases simply isn't fair. Just like it isn't fair to compare 2 individuals who have grown up with entirely different circumstances/life experiences. Their perspectives are shaped by those experiences, thus they cannot be expected to act in the same manner.

    C) Blaming the coaching staff rather than the players (like you did) is anecdotal. You're right when you say the fans don't know the whole story behind what's causing the product on the court/rink - HOWEVER - as Michael Jordan so vividly put it in his Hall of Fame induction speech "It's the players who go out there on the court to win championships. Not the organization, not the coaches. They have something to do with it. But at the end of the day, it's the players who win or lose out there." (paraphrased)

    So to label Toronto sports fans as "irrational" or to ridicule them, as some people on the outside looking in may do, simply verifies the brassy point that I'm about to make: Toronto fans are perhaps the best and most loyal sports fans in the North American professional sports market. Even though their beloved hockey team hasn't won a Stanley Cup in 40+ years, and their basketball team hasn't breached the mediocre 47 win mark - they stick by their side each and every season - chanting loudly (whether it be boos or hoorays) and that's the beauty of it all. Players who have played here long enough can vouch for how loud & crazy the atmosphere in the ACC is when they win big.

    So love em or hate em, at the end of the day Toronto fans will support their sports teams. They're just extremely ambitious and so dearly tired of losing, hence all those boos.

    - bhattmagandhi
    Last edited by bhattmagandhi; Tue Apr 13th, 2010, 12:25 PM.

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  • ws511
    replied
    Quick replies:

    RaptorTalk - a point that I tried or meant to make is that the coaching and management of the team is far more responsible for whatever it is we see on the floor that we all - and I’m definitely included, as a Raptors fan from day one - get disgruntled about ... yet it’s the players who take the brunt of the booing. If this team was well coached, we’d not be seeing the vast majority (I believe) of badly organized play that we so often see, that ends up bringing on the booooos.

    cornbread - I agree.

    TheLowEndFury - we’ve seen (mostly from elsewhere) how teams can get energized by the fans really getting behind them, even when they’ve been down a ton. So, ya ... I agree.

    Rainman - yup.

    Deadallus - the fans definitely (and obviously) have the right to boo ... but as to your analogy - and not that I’d question your parenting skills, you understand - maybe showing your kid the dried up food on the plate and explaining a bit about bacteria and the problems it can cause ... and then demonstrating a better way to wash those dishes properly, might get better results. Better than the booing, that is. Especially if followed up with the assertion that the weekly $10 is dependent on doing the job correctly. Of course, as fans, we can’t really threaten the money that the players receive, so ... that part of it doesn’t fit here ... but the rest of the analogy might. ‘Cause once again, it comes down to the coaching, handling and management of the players to see that they do their respective jobs fully, on the court. If our ‘boos’ could be directed straight to the coaches, management and owners ... I’d be all for it. In a big way. But that’s not what the players experience when they hear boos from their fans.

    Apollo - fair enough.

    Doc - cheers.

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