Legacy League championship - VOTE NOW!

[Axel]

The legacy league was created to pit teams drafted by fellow RR members against each other and allow the general RR populous to vote on who would win this winner take all, single elimination game if all players were at their peak performance.

Each team drafted an 8 man roster. Each team provided a gameplan justification as to why they believe they should get your vote. Each team is allowed 1 post for "in game adjustments." The role of RR community is simple, vote for who you believe should win. Post justification if you want (encouraged) and weigh the pros and cons for all to see, but ultimately, your vote decides who will win this tournament of legends.

The final two teams battle for the championship.


Joey's Legacy Allstars

Starters
PG Steve Nash aka Captain Canada - 18.6ppg, 11.6apg, 53%FG, 46%3P, 65%TS, 124 ORtg
2x MVP, 8x All-Star, 7x All-NBA Selection (3x 1st Team), 5x Assist Leader, 4x 50-40-90 (Most in History), 3rd Most Assists in History

SG/SF Eddie Jones aka ... EJ - 20.1ppg, 4.8rpg, 4.2apg, 2.7spg, 38%3P, 20PER, 4.4DWS
3x All-Defensive Team Selection, 3x All-Star, 1x Steals Leader

SF Ron Artest aka Metta World Peace - 18.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 2.1spg, 96 DRtg
Defensive Player of the Year, NBA Champion, 4x All-Defensive Team Selection (2x 1st Team, 2x 2nd Team), BAMF

PF Willis Reed aka The Captain - 21.7ppg, 13.9rpg, 21.9 PER, 7.5DWS
MVP, 2x Champion, 2x Finals MVP, 7x All-Star, 5x All-NBA Selection (1x 1st Team, 4x 2nd Team), All-NBA Defensive Team

C Wilt Chamberlain aka The Big Dipper - 50ppg, 25rpg 31.8 PER (Highest Ever for all 3) - Averaged 24, 24 & 8 on 68%FG at 30yo
4x MVP, 13x Allstar, 2x Champion, 9x All NBA Selection (7x 1st Team), 11x Rebounds Leader, Led NBA in Assists in 67-68 because, why not .. ah just go here, he has a whole Wiki page on his accomplishments.

Bench
PG Allen Iverson aka The Answer - 33ppg, 7.4apg, 1.9spg, 45%FG, 25.9 PER
MVP, 11x All-Star, 7x All-NBA Selection (3x 1st Team, 3x 2nd Team), 3x Steals Leader, 4x Scoring Champion, BAMF

SG Ray Allen aka Jesus - 22ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.6apg, 1.5spg, 48%FG, 43%3P, 61%TS, 22.9 PER
2x Champion, 10x All-Star, 2x All-NBA Selection, All-Time Leader in 3-Pointers Made

PF Shawn Kemp aka The Reign Man - 18.1ppg, 10.8rpg, 2.1bpg, 1.6spg, 22.9 PER, 6.0 DWS, 96 DRtg
6x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, BAMF

E_WHEAZY Starting Lineup:

PG: John Stockton - All time assists and steals leader, shot 45% from 3, career 207.7 win shares

SG: Reggie Miller - retired with most 3PM all time, career 39.5% from 3, all time NBA leader in 4 point plays, scored 8 points in 8.9 seconds, extremely clutch, could get hot and take over a game in seconds (literally)

SF: Kawhi Leonard - reigning DPOY, NBA champion, NBA finals MVP for his amazing lockdown defense on the game's best player.

PF: Karl Malone - 2 time MVP (once in Jordan Era) 11 time All-NBA 1st team, career 234.6 win shares, 96 Drtg

C: Dwight Howard - 8 time all star, 5 time All NBA first team, 3 time consecutive DPOY, 5 time NBA rebounds leader and 2 time consecutive blocks leader

Bn: Derrick Rose - NBA MVP while Lebron was in the league, youngest MVP in league history

Bn: James Worthy - NBA Finals MVP, 3x NBA champ, clutchest of clutch performers, elite defender, 37.5% from 3

Bn: Bob Lanier - 8 time NBA all star, 63% FG playoff shooting, 88 (yeah, you read that right) DRTG season, 3 blks, 15 rebounds/pg seasons, retired with career 20PPG and 10RPG averages

Joeys Offensive Gameplan
Offensively, we will be Starting with Nash at the point, who look to maintain a breakneck pace while attacking on pick-and-rolls set by Shawn Kemp, Willis Reed and Wilt Chamberlain, which will in turn create shots for himself, or collapse the defense and create shots for teammates like Ray or Eddie in the corner, Ron on the Wing, or a Big on the Roll. I will look to have Ray and Eddie continuously running off-ball, which will force Reggie and Kawhi to either exert all their energy on Defense, or cheat at times, which will be deadly.

Our main weapon on Offense , however, will be feeding Wilt down low as much as possible, and allowing him to go to work against the smaller, weaker & slower Howard (7'1 w/ a 7'8" Wingspan; vs Dwight at 6'10"ish w/ a 7'4" wingspan). Make no mistake, Dwight will moan to refs all game long, but it won't make a lick of difference ... Wilt would have his way with Dwight.


I also think Iverson and Ray Allen would have a blast against this lineup, as there really isn't anyone who can match up with them when they come into the game and wreak havoc, not only on the cutting lanes with Nash, but also in Wheazhy's passing lanes creating multiple steals for fast breaks and unguardable corner 3's from Ray.


Joeys Defensive Gameplan
Defensively, I'll have Eddie Jones and Ron Artest chasing Kawhi and Reggie around, and they should all but neutralize each other. Nash vs Stockton is a wash again, as Stockton was hardly a Defensive Maestro (despite his steals numbers .. he played the lanes). The Combination of Reed and Kemp against Malone will be a good one, but I think ultimately their energy and tenacity will tire the ol' mailman out; leaving us with Wilt Chamberlain, who was just too big and too strong for Dwight to guard, and could easily play all 48 minutes of the game, as he did for an entire season and playoff run.


E_WHEAZY Gameplan
There's no question that Nash was a great player, no one will challenge that, but Stockton is elite in the areas we need him to be - playmaking, 3 point shooting and defense - in fact, it's on defense that this matchup swings our way - while Stockton is a good enough defender to guard Nash, Nash is not a good enough defender to stop Stockton, leading to a great playmaking advantage for us.

Ray-Ray vs Uncle Reggie (no pun intended) is another brilliant matchup, which in my opinion is a wash - they are both great 3 point shooters, great at moving without the ball, and step up when needed. The main difference is that Reggie alone carried his teams farther than Ray ever did - Reggie's ability to get into his opponent's head, create his own shot off the dribble (whereas Ray is a catch-n-shoot guy) and as a result of this score at will, makes this advantage, Miller.

At the 3, with superior ball handling, playmaking, shooting, better height, wingspan, speed, agility and higher IQ - both basketball and otherwise - there is no denying that Kawhi simply gives us way more than Artest can (provided no one throws their drink at him).

Reed vs Malone is a tough matchup as both these guys have similar height and weight (though Malone was 240 to Reed's 235) and similar games, equal rebounding numbers, FT% - though Malone sets himself apart as a better scorer (can shoot from 15, execute PnR, post up and makes his teammates better) and that's reflected in his better FG%, higher RB% and AST%.

Wilt, while he did average 50 points per game for a season, also averaged MORE than 48 minutes per game that season and was matched up against the likes of Irv Abramowitz and Larry Sanderson, in other words, less than overwhelming centers. No one is saying Dwight is going to put the clamps on him and shut him down, but if you think the 3x consecutive DPOY and 2x Block Leader is going to roll over, you're dead wrong - and with his usage sitting at nearly 45%, playing him and AI together means 2 on 5 offense.


Off the bench, more intriguing matchups: D-Rose vs AI, both quick, athletic guards who can get to the lane and score at will, though D-Rose is taller, has longer arms, better on D, doesn't black-hole our offense and actually practices (practice? PRACTICE?) so he gets the advantage on this one.

Eddie Jones is a decent 3 and D guy, but Worthy offers better D, more versatility, higher BBIQ and most importantly, he shows up when it matters most and knows how to close out games.


Shawn Kemp, although he was explosive and a great athlete, is prone to emotional outbursts, gets into foul trouble easily and has low awareness and BBIQ - his game is using his athleticism and finding open lanes for dunks, and we're confident Lanier/Malone have the speed, quickness, agility and intelligence to bother him in the post, taking away his bread and butter and making him cry (that's no joke, he might literally cry...or punch someone).


In Game Adjustments - Coming Soon!

So RR faithful, who wins this game?

[TrueTorontoFan]

Joey because he has Iverson, Ray Allen, Sean Kemp, and Wilt the stilt. That is one man short of an insane line up but that is insane.

[Mack North]

Jeez... I'm torn... I keep flipping my pick back & forth.

I love the players on Joeys team, but I think e-wheazy put together a great TEAM. I will have to put some more thought into my vote and make it in the next couple days.

Good luck, fellas!

(Can't believe this was started in July!)

[Cody73]

My vote is set.



Please don't kill me......

[BobLoblaw]

With Wilt vs. Dwight, I think it's a bit like Yao vs. Dwight. Yao could usually score with ease against Dwight in the post when he got the ball. The problem used to be getting Yao the ball, as teams would front him, send help, plus he didn't play with great point guards. Yao could often be taken out of games completely because the ball just couldn't get to him in good position. That's the problem with pure post-up scorers who don't really do anything else in today's game.

But Wilt is more mobile, so I think it should be easier for him to get open for a pass, plus he has one of the best passers ever in Nash delivering him the ball. If Wilt has the ball on the block with his back to Dwight, I think Dwight's in trouble.

When it comes to Nash vs. Stockton, I don't believe that Stockton can defend Nash, Stockton struggled against quickness, and I think Nash will go past him at will. On the other hand, Stockton is many tiers below Nash as a scorer, so Nash's defense isn't as important. Both will struggle on defense, but Nash is a much better offensive player, so that matchup is heavily in his favor, in my opinion.

Willis Reed at PF I'm not sure about, since his better position was center. But he has ability to shoot from mid range, so maybe. I see him as a similar player to David West, but more of a center.

I value Kawhi Leonard higher than Ron Artest personally, Kawhi is miles ahead as a help defender. Offensively both can stop the ball and break offensive plays, but Ron Artest is more of a chucker.

Overall, I think I'll have to go with Team Joey here. While I love how Team e_wheazy is built, I think Team Joey should work well too, both offensively and defensively, and I think it's just a more talented team.

I think many players from Team e_wheazy are overrated today because of their longevity, Stockton, Malone, Reggie Miller. Team Joey has the best big man and the best little guy in this matchup, plus a better bench IMO (although I feel dirty for saying that one of these teams has a better bench, because both benches are fantastic).

[Joey]

Bump!

One more day to vote!

[rocwell]

Oh no, it's 8-8... I don't want to be Mr. Decider.

[e_wheazhy_]

With Wilt vs. Dwight, I think it's a bit like Yao vs. Dwight. Yao could usually score with ease against Dwight in the post when he got the ball. The problem used to be getting Yao the ball, as teams would front him, send help, plus he didn't play with great point guards. Yao could often be taken out of games completely because the ball just couldn't get to him in good position. That's the problem with pure post-up scorers who don't really do anything else in today's game.

But Wilt is more mobile, so I think it should be easier for him to get open for a pass, plus he has one of the best passers ever in Nash delivering him the ball. If Wilt has the ball on the block with his back to Dwight, I think Dwight's in trouble.

When it comes to Nash vs. Stockton, I don't believe that Stockton can defend Nash, Stockton struggled against quickness, and I think Nash will go past him at will. On the other hand, Stockton is many tiers below Nash as a scorer, so Nash's defense isn't as important. Both will struggle on defense, but Nash is a much better offensive player, so that matchup is heavily in his favor, in my opinion.

Willis Reed at PF I'm not sure about, since his better position was center. But he has ability to shoot from mid range, so maybe. I see him as a similar player to David West, but more of a center.

I value Kawhi Leonard higher than Ron Artest personally, Kawhi is miles ahead as a help defender. Offensively both can stop the ball and break offensive plays, but Ron Artest is more of a chucker.

Overall, I think I'll have to go with Team Joey here. While I love how Team e_wheazy is built, I think Team Joey should work well too, both offensively and defensively, and I think it's just a more talented team.

I think many players from Team e_wheazy are overrated today because of their longevity, Stockton, Malone, Reggie Miller. Team Joey has the best big man and the best little guy in this matchup, plus a better bench IMO (although I feel dirty for saying that one of these teams has a better bench, because both benches are fantastic).

Like I said, Wilt won't be neutralized but with the length, strength and defensive IQ of our defenders, we have the ability to guard him in many ways in the post - especially with double teams, as he was not a good and much less a willing passer - and fronting him with another player to deny him the ball. For a guy who's reportedly 7'4 to only have a wingspan 1.5" longer than Dwight is not a huge advantage.

Moreover, Nash averaged 4 turnovers a game! With the number of passes he makes per game as well, my man John Stockton will have a field day "playing the passing lanes". Also, like I mentioned, we don't need Stockton to be a scorer - Nash's weak defense means Stockton will have an easy time making plays for his teammates, which makes our team better than the sum of its parts

[Joey]

I think my team speaks for itself, so I won't make any adjustments or rebuttals.

I don't think people will be swayed by arguments that get into "Emotional outbursts", questioning players "Practice" regimen, or making up weird claims about Wilt not being a willing, or good passer (even though he nearly averaged a Triple-Double and led the league in Assists). I think with Superior Guard Play, Better Shooting, Superior Wing Defenders, and Superior Bigmen, my team would prevail.

EDIT: Just noticed James Worthy is listed above as having a 37.5 3P% and an Elite Defender... Worthy averaged 24% for his career from 3, with his best season being 30.6%. Worthy was worse than Demar at shooting 3s. And had a career DRtg of 108.



I would, however, like to congratulate Wheazhy for making it to the Finals, and I would like to thank EVERYONE who has participated in the voting, discussions, and especially AXEL for setting this all up. Its been ALOT of fun, and no matter the outcome, I look forward to this becoming a regular staple here at RR.

[e_wheazhy_]

Legacy League championship - VOTE NOW!

I don't think people will be swayed by arguments that get into "Emotional outbursts", questioning players "Practice" regimen, or making up weird claims about Wilt not being a willing, or good passer (even though he nearly averaged a Triple-Double). I think with Superior Guard Play, Better Shooting, Superior Wing Defenders, and Superior Bigmen, my team would prevail.

GREAT way of framing this to "destroy" my arguments. Only they weren't the sole part of the argument, and they are indeed extremely relevant arguments. If a guy gets emotional on the court and gets a T, or ejected, well guess what? That's free points for me, plus you now have a shorter rotation. Secondly, the practice thing was a throwaway joke, the main problem was his extremely high usage number (4.6 ast per game for a POINT GUARD?) will destroy the flow of your ball movement oriented offense. As for Wilt "almost" averaging a triple double... The year you mentioned up there, 50 points, 25 boards...? 2.4 ast. Not exactly Rajon Rondo.

I agree that the team with Superior Guard Play, Better Shooting, Superior Wing Defenders, and Superior Bigmen would come out on top. Unfortunately 10 voters (so far) seem a little confused as to who this team is... (Hint: it's mine! &#128521

Love you guys, great job Joey, don't mind losing because you got a great team but I'm definitely not going down without a fight. My guys just beat Jordan and they're hungry for a championship (Malone, Stockton, Reggie, Lanier, Rose, and Dwight are salivating at the mouth... Kawhi is neutral on the topic, as with everything)



EDIT: Worthy did average 37.5% in the playoffs, didn't realize it was a small sample size though.

[BobLoblaw]

Like I said, Wilt won't be neutralized but with the length, strength and defensive IQ of our defenders, we have the ability to guard him in many ways in the post - especially with double teams, as he was not a good and much less a willing passer - and fronting him with another player to deny him the ball. For a guy who's reportedly 7'4 to only have a wingspan 1.5" longer than Dwight is not a huge advantage.

Moreover, Nash averaged 4 turnovers a game! With the number of passes he makes per game as well, my man John Stockton will have a field day "playing the passing lanes". Also, like I mentioned, we don't need Stockton to be a scorer - Nash's weak defense means Stockton will have an easy time making plays for his teammates, which makes our team better than the sum of its parts

When you say 7'4 with a winspan 1.5'' longer than Dwight's, I think you mean Yao Ming. Yep, Yao didn't have freakishly long arms for his height (still quite long). But he was effective against Dwight IF he got the ball in the post. Getting Yao the ball sometimes worked very well, sometimes it didn't work at all against some teams.

Wilt was kind of like Rudy Gobert, 7'2-ish with freakishly long arms and good athleticism. But his main talent is that he's a very skilled player in the post, he could finish in a ton of ways.

Yep, I think that defending Wilt will require fronting and helping a lot, making sure that he gets the ball on the block as little as possible, but will it work well, I don't know. He's much more mobile than someone like Yao and he has Nash to give him the ball in the right spots.

In general, Wilt is one of the hardest players to judge for me. Talent is huge, but his type players are very unusual in today's NBA, a pure post-up scorer who sits on the block pretty much full time.

I'd be very interested to see what would really happen.

I think your team also has advantages, Malone vs. Reed, I'm not sure that Reed can defend well enough here. Also prime Artest can chuck a lot, so I guess I'd try to get the ball out of Nash's hands quickly, I might even defend Nash with Kawhi or at least help often. Try to let Artest hold the ball as much as possible and make decisions with it.

Still, I think Joey's team probably has better matchup advantages. Plus I think that team is more talented. I'd personally say that the best 4 players in this whole matchup are Wilt, Malone, Nash and Iverson in some order, Joey has 3 of them.

Your team is also very talented overall. I think the starting lineup doesn't stand out in talent in this draft, but it's a very deep team with great players on the bench. It's well built, deep. But Joey's team to me has advantage in both talent and matchups.

[e_wheazhy_]

Bob, that's a great idea re: Kawhi on Nash. That had kinda been my strategy the whole way here, switching my best defender on to the other team's best offensive player, I don't know why I went away from that. It'd work well enough, even if we just switched Kawhi on him for a couple of plays, and lived with Stockton playing the passing lanes on the passes to Artest or even Artest post ups, as that takes the ball away from their better scorers.

Either way, I'm just happy to have made it this far, considering I wasn't even slated to be in the league and got handed the team with the last pick at the last second. I'm honoured to have gone up against you fine gentlemen and proud of myself for having made it so far. It was extremely fun getting to test my basketball knowledge against guys who I feel have great basketball knowledge and insight.

When I think back to when we started this draft, and all the time in between then and now, a lot has changed for the better, and I hope you all can reflect and feel the same way. Thanks to everyone who voted, who participated, who followed the draft even though you weren't participating and even to those who made accounts just to vote! Welcome to RR! Joey, congratulations on making the finals, you have a great team and had a great draft. I'm on mobile so I can't check the score (though I'm sure I'm beating you by like 347 votes &#128526 but at this point it doesn't even matter, we're all alive and I'll celebrate that. We're all winners here.

[planetmars]

Sorry guys.. forgot to vote in this one (been a busy week). Congrats Joey! Nash and AI finally have their championships!

[BobLoblaw]

Yep, congrats to Joey!

[Joey]

Wow, thinking back on the competition I had to get through to get to this point, I'm absolutely honoured, humbled and shocked that my squad of guys was able to triumph.

The exchange of knowledge and history that happened over the course of this tournament should not be overlooked or underacknowledged. I can say with certainty that I have learned gobs about certain players, and teams, and seasons and history in general that I likely would not have bothered to educate myself about if not for this fun tournament.

Wheazhy, I had my eyes on your team ever since your first two picks of Stockton and Malone (mostly because I had Stockton as my #1 PG to pair with Wilt); I knew you were one to be reckoned with. We built our teams incredibly similar, and I knew if I ever had to face you, it would not be easy. And it wasn't at all. Up until yesterday I was all but convinced I had lost this one. Great match up my man.

Until Next Year!!