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Lucas Nogueira

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  • JWash wrote: View Post
    JV doesn't really play above the rim due to both a lack of agility and leaping ability. So it's tougher to get those easy lob plays like Lowry does with Bebe.
    Absolutely. The problem is Lowry's un-predictable style when it comes to passing.

    Bismack "complained" about that issue in a recent article.

    The thing is the unexpectedSometimes they find the last second to give me the ball when you expect the man to shoot the ball
    http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...-progress.html

    Lowry is always in score-first mode, with passing as a last option, so the rolling big doesn't really know if/when the pass is coming. Also, because Lowry is small and often waits until he's cornered to pass it, he needs to lob it at a high angle - something that's really hard to appreciate watching games on TV. So the rolling big man really needs to be a superior athlete who is tall & long that can control those imperfect Lowry passes - otherwise Lowry won't make the pass.

    Biyombo is a superior athlete, who lacks height and hands. JV is long and used to be a great PnR finisher, but he no longer has the bounce he had when he came into the league. Bebe has both, and hopefully, he doesn't lose that bounce.
    Last edited by golden; Mon Dec 7, 2015, 12:15 PM.

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    • golden wrote: View Post
      Absolutely. The problem is Lowry's un-predictable style when it comes to passing.

      Bismack "complained" about that issue in a recent article.


      http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...-progress.html

      Lowry is always in score-first mode, with passing as a last option, so the rolling big doesn't really know if/when the pass is coming. Also, because Lowry is small and often waits until he's cornered to pass it, he needs to lob it at a high angle - something that's really hard to appreciate watching games on TV. So the rolling big man really needs to be a superior athlete who is tall & long that can control those imperfect Lowry passes - otherwise Lowry won't make the pass.

      Biyombo is a superior athlete, who lacks height and hands. JV is long and used to be a great PnR finisher, but he no longer has the bounce he had when he came into the league. Bebe has both, and hopefully, he doesn't lose that bounce.
      Bismack has been playing with Lowry for maybe 20 games though, so understandable he's getting a feel for the Lowry's style of play. JV, has been playing along side Lowry for years. This isn't an attempt to slander JV in any way, but just to try and recognize why the chemistry isn't there between the pairing.

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      • LJ2 wrote: View Post
        Bismack has been playing with Lowry for maybe 20 games though, so understandable he's getting a feel for the Lowry's style of play. JV, has been playing along side Lowry for years. This isn't an attempt to slander JV in any way, but just to try and recognize why the chemistry isn't there between the pairing.
        Actually, I'm kind of saying the opposite, i.e., Bismack and JV don't have chemistry with Lowry and likely never will, no matter how long they play together. And that Bebe has found instant chemistry because he can handle much tougher passes than JV or Bismack (because of combined length and athletic ability superior to JV and Bismack).

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        • JWash wrote: View Post
          JV doesn't really play above the rim due to both a lack of agility and leaping ability. So it's tougher to get those easy lob plays like Lowry does with Bebe.
          See, this line of thinking I always find really kind of overblown.

          Not to get into a debate about JV vs. Bebe's athleticism...

          But athleticism is not the critical factor in lobs to big men. When you watch the Clips play, DeAndre, who's one of the biggest freak athletes maybe ever at the C position, gets most of his lobs right at the rim. As in his athleticism is not really a huge factor in whether the play can be made, and any big who can jump at all (as in excluding the truly below the rim guys like Pek or Big Al) can convert on a big chunk of those alley oop plays. Now, athleticism is a factor and it helps, but really you're looking at very few alley-oops where the big man's athleticism is the reason the play is converted. Mostly it's dependent on chemistry between the 2 guys, and passing ability of the ballhandler.

          For whatever reason, our ballhandlers have been very reluctant to throw the ball up for JV. There are times the easy lob pass is there. And while JV doesn't have the athleticism to turn a bad pass into an alley-oop (something the freakier athletes will get for you from time to time), he does also have an excellent touch and better ability to finish with non-dunks than most bigs.

          So I can't really blame the lack of a lob game on JV's leaping ability. There just doesn't seem to be much will from the players, or coaches in terms of scheming, to really get that 2-man game going. The only guys JV ever had good chemistry with on the p'n'r were Jose and Rudy (in the season we first got him, before Casey told him to stop passing going into the next year). There have been a few passes I've seen them make to Bebe the last couple of games where all I could think is (and not necessarily on lobs alone) "why the fuck do they look off JV most of the time in the exact same situation?".

          Also, don't forget defences actually pay attention to JV, and there's a lot more effort by the D to make sure he doesn't get a free walk to the basket. A guy like Bebe hasn't been scouted at all yet, and they've basically been letting him roam the last couple of games. Don't know if I've seen him bumped once after setting the pick and rolling. So that's worth keeping an eye on too. Probably a factor in that GSW game as I don't know if I've ever seen Lowry make so many passes up there at any point in his career. But Bebe was just so wide open at times...like GSW thought he was Biyombo.

          So agility and leaping can be a factor, but on most lobs I just don't think it really has to do with either. Set a solid screen and have good chemistry/timing between the 2 guys, and it should be a play that they can convert when it's available.

          I mean really, off the top of my head I can think of maybe one tougher alley-oop that Bebe was able to convert that I don't think JV could have. Mostly they've just been easy buckets on passes at the rim that for whatever reason(s) we don't see happening when Lowry's played with other bigs.

          **And again, to sum up for anyone who doesn't want to read a long post, while athleticism/agility are a factor, chemistry between the big and the passer is the most important thing, and it's just something that hasn't been developed much in our system. Even when Amir was here the amount of times he'd not get the pass/lob when open on a roll was criminal.
          Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Dec 7, 2015, 12:53 PM.

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          • Lowry does throw oops to JV occasionally, but because of the attention that JV gets when he sets a screen and rolls to the basket, I think most of the time he's looking for other guys that are open.

            I don't remember which game it was, but there was a time when JV checked back into the 4th quarter after having a good game, and every time he was involved in a screen and roll situation, they didn't pass to him. Every time he rolled a number of defenders would rotate into the paint to stop him from scoring inside, since they were aware of how well he operates near the rim. Right now Bebe isn't attracting too much attention so he's a lot more open for those easy shots. But with time it might become harder for him to get open, luckily he has the right mentality and is willing to use his screens to get other teammates open instead of himself.
            OG is our king

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            • Fun fact: Bebe already has 0.4 less PPG this season than Terrence Ross. Should pass him tonight or this week.
              It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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              • Lucas Nogueira

                I think it has more to do with that Bebe is RLLY long. Like a lot of those oops he was literally just on his tippy toes.

                Jv is the far superior player no doubt, but he will never be able to, nor was he ever able to, catch and hit those types of oops in traffic the way Bebe has been doing


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                • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  See, this line of thinking I always find really kind of overblown. ....

                  But athleticism is not the critical factor in lobs to big men. .... for whatever reason, our ballhandlers have been very reluctant to throw the ball up for JV.

                  Also, don't forget defences actually pay attention to JV, and there's a lot more effort by the D to make sure he doesn't get a free walk to the basket. A guy like Bebe hasn't been scouted at all yet, and they've basically been letting him roam the last couple of games.

                  So agility and leaping can be a factor, but on most lobs I just don't think it really has to do with either. Set a solid screen and have good chemistry/timing between the 2 guys, and it should be a play that they can convert when it's available.

                  **And again, to sum up for anyone who doesn't want to read a long post, while athleticism/agility are a factor, chemistry between the big and the passer is the most important thing, and it's just something that hasn't been developed much in our system. Even when Amir was here the amount of times he'd not get the pass/lob when open on a roll was criminal.
                  I can't really say if this is "spot on", but I think it's a nice post, solidly reasoned.

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                  • yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
                    I think it has more to do with that Bebe is RLLY long. Like a lot of those oops he was literally just on his tippy toes.

                    Jv is the far superior player no doubt, but he will never be able to, nor was he ever able to, catch and hit those types of oops in traffic the way Bebe has been doing


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                    How many has Bebe made in traffic? Pretty sure the answer is none.

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                    • consmap wrote: View Post
                      Lowry does throw oops to JV occasionally, but because of the attention that JV gets when he sets a screen and rolls to the basket, I think most of the time he's looking for other guys that are open.

                      I don't remember which game it was, but there was a time when JV checked back into the 4th quarter after having a good game, and every time he was involved in a screen and roll situation, they didn't pass to him. Every time he rolled a number of defenders would rotate into the paint to stop him from scoring inside, since they were aware of how well he operates near the rim. Right now Bebe isn't attracting too much attention so he's a lot more open for those easy shots. But with time it might become harder for him to get open, luckily he has the right mentality and is willing to use his screens to get other teammates open instead of himself.
                      Which is what you want. You get him going at all and JV attracts a stupid amount of attention on D. Then all you need is any kind of system with floor balance so as soon as the D overloads there are opportunities for everyone else. And that's why you can't have Biyombo on the floor. You can't have a player the other team can ignore. Right now that's sort of happening with Bebe as he's an unknown to the league, but it won't continue.

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                      • golden wrote: View Post
                        Absolutely. The problem is Lowry's un-predictable style when it comes to passing.

                        Bismack "complained" about that issue in a recent article. ....
                        Biyombo is a superior athlete, who lacks height and hands. JV is long and used to be a great PnR finisher, but he no longer has the bounce he had when he came into the league. Bebe has both, and hopefully, he doesn't lose that bounce.
                        Interesting. I think we all remember seeing JV bobble (or freeze with) passes, late in games, from Lowry.

                        So is ths a Lowry thing, a JV thing ... or even a Bebe thing.

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                        • Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
                          Interesting. I think we all remember seeing JV bobble (or freeze with) passes, late in games, from Lowry.

                          So is ths a Lowry thing, a JV thing ... or even a Bebe thing.
                          Lowry is not a very good passer for bigs. Too many passes below the waist around the knees. Lowry just isn't a particularly gifted passer compared to many PGs.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                          • consmap wrote: View Post
                            Lowry does throw oops to JV occasionally, but because of the attention that JV gets when he sets a screen and rolls to the basket, I think most of the time he's looking for other guys that are open.

                            I don't remember which game it was, but there was a time when JV checked back into the 4th quarter after having a good game, and every time he was involved in a screen and roll situation, they didn't pass to him. Every time he rolled a number of defenders would rotate into the paint to stop him from scoring inside, since they were aware of how well he operates near the rim. Right now Bebe isn't attracting too much attention so he's a lot more open for those easy shots. But with time it might become harder for him to get open, luckily he has the right mentality and is willing to use his screens to get other teammates open instead of himself.
                            Honestly I just rewatched highlights of Bebe's from the last couple of games....and yeah, the biggest factor isn't his length, agility or athleticism.....it's that the D is largely ignoring him. He's a huge wide open target where no one is in a position to bother him at all. So I think you're spot on here.

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                            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                              How many has Bebe made in traffic? Pretty sure the answer is none.
                              He did like 2 last game. And literally he just used his length


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                              I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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                              • Yeah, it's not like Bebe is jumping out of the gym on these lobs. He's open, he's uber-long, and he seems to have good timing. Also, when he gets the dump off, he keeps the ball high and doesn't take time to gather.

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