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Lucas Nogueira

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  • Wild-ling#1
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    See, this line of thinking I always find really kind of overblown. ....

    But athleticism is not the critical factor in lobs to big men. .... for whatever reason, our ballhandlers have been very reluctant to throw the ball up for JV.

    Also, don't forget defences actually pay attention to JV, and there's a lot more effort by the D to make sure he doesn't get a free walk to the basket. A guy like Bebe hasn't been scouted at all yet, and they've basically been letting him roam the last couple of games.

    So agility and leaping can be a factor, but on most lobs I just don't think it really has to do with either. Set a solid screen and have good chemistry/timing between the 2 guys, and it should be a play that they can convert when it's available.

    **And again, to sum up for anyone who doesn't want to read a long post, while athleticism/agility are a factor, chemistry between the big and the passer is the most important thing, and it's just something that hasn't been developed much in our system. Even when Amir was here the amount of times he'd not get the pass/lob when open on a roll was criminal.
    I can't really say if this is "spot on", but I think it's a nice post, solidly reasoned.

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  • yabadabayolo
    replied
    Lucas Nogueira

    I think it has more to do with that Bebe is RLLY long. Like a lot of those oops he was literally just on his tippy toes.

    Jv is the far superior player no doubt, but he will never be able to, nor was he ever able to, catch and hit those types of oops in traffic the way Bebe has been doing


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  • KeonClark
    replied
    Fun fact: Bebe already has 0.4 less PPG this season than Terrence Ross. Should pass him tonight or this week.

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  • consmap
    replied
    Lowry does throw oops to JV occasionally, but because of the attention that JV gets when he sets a screen and rolls to the basket, I think most of the time he's looking for other guys that are open.

    I don't remember which game it was, but there was a time when JV checked back into the 4th quarter after having a good game, and every time he was involved in a screen and roll situation, they didn't pass to him. Every time he rolled a number of defenders would rotate into the paint to stop him from scoring inside, since they were aware of how well he operates near the rim. Right now Bebe isn't attracting too much attention so he's a lot more open for those easy shots. But with time it might become harder for him to get open, luckily he has the right mentality and is willing to use his screens to get other teammates open instead of himself.

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  • white men can't jump
    replied
    JWash wrote: View Post
    JV doesn't really play above the rim due to both a lack of agility and leaping ability. So it's tougher to get those easy lob plays like Lowry does with Bebe.
    See, this line of thinking I always find really kind of overblown.

    Not to get into a debate about JV vs. Bebe's athleticism...

    But athleticism is not the critical factor in lobs to big men. When you watch the Clips play, DeAndre, who's one of the biggest freak athletes maybe ever at the C position, gets most of his lobs right at the rim. As in his athleticism is not really a huge factor in whether the play can be made, and any big who can jump at all (as in excluding the truly below the rim guys like Pek or Big Al) can convert on a big chunk of those alley oop plays. Now, athleticism is a factor and it helps, but really you're looking at very few alley-oops where the big man's athleticism is the reason the play is converted. Mostly it's dependent on chemistry between the 2 guys, and passing ability of the ballhandler.

    For whatever reason, our ballhandlers have been very reluctant to throw the ball up for JV. There are times the easy lob pass is there. And while JV doesn't have the athleticism to turn a bad pass into an alley-oop (something the freakier athletes will get for you from time to time), he does also have an excellent touch and better ability to finish with non-dunks than most bigs.

    So I can't really blame the lack of a lob game on JV's leaping ability. There just doesn't seem to be much will from the players, or coaches in terms of scheming, to really get that 2-man game going. The only guys JV ever had good chemistry with on the p'n'r were Jose and Rudy (in the season we first got him, before Casey told him to stop passing going into the next year). There have been a few passes I've seen them make to Bebe the last couple of games where all I could think is (and not necessarily on lobs alone) "why the fuck do they look off JV most of the time in the exact same situation?".

    Also, don't forget defences actually pay attention to JV, and there's a lot more effort by the D to make sure he doesn't get a free walk to the basket. A guy like Bebe hasn't been scouted at all yet, and they've basically been letting him roam the last couple of games. Don't know if I've seen him bumped once after setting the pick and rolling. So that's worth keeping an eye on too. Probably a factor in that GSW game as I don't know if I've ever seen Lowry make so many passes up there at any point in his career. But Bebe was just so wide open at times...like GSW thought he was Biyombo.

    So agility and leaping can be a factor, but on most lobs I just don't think it really has to do with either. Set a solid screen and have good chemistry/timing between the 2 guys, and it should be a play that they can convert when it's available.

    I mean really, off the top of my head I can think of maybe one tougher alley-oop that Bebe was able to convert that I don't think JV could have. Mostly they've just been easy buckets on passes at the rim that for whatever reason(s) we don't see happening when Lowry's played with other bigs.

    **And again, to sum up for anyone who doesn't want to read a long post, while athleticism/agility are a factor, chemistry between the big and the passer is the most important thing, and it's just something that hasn't been developed much in our system. Even when Amir was here the amount of times he'd not get the pass/lob when open on a roll was criminal.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Dec 7, 2015, 12:53 PM.

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  • golden
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post
    Bismack has been playing with Lowry for maybe 20 games though, so understandable he's getting a feel for the Lowry's style of play. JV, has been playing along side Lowry for years. This isn't an attempt to slander JV in any way, but just to try and recognize why the chemistry isn't there between the pairing.
    Actually, I'm kind of saying the opposite, i.e., Bismack and JV don't have chemistry with Lowry and likely never will, no matter how long they play together. And that Bebe has found instant chemistry because he can handle much tougher passes than JV or Bismack (because of combined length and athletic ability superior to JV and Bismack).

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  • LJ2
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post
    Absolutely. The problem is Lowry's un-predictable style when it comes to passing.

    Bismack "complained" about that issue in a recent article.


    http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...-progress.html

    Lowry is always in score-first mode, with passing as a last option, so the rolling big doesn't really know if/when the pass is coming. Also, because Lowry is small and often waits until he's cornered to pass it, he needs to lob it at a high angle - something that's really hard to appreciate watching games on TV. So the rolling big man really needs to be a superior athlete who is tall & long that can control those imperfect Lowry passes - otherwise Lowry won't make the pass.

    Biyombo is a superior athlete, who lacks height and hands. JV is long and used to be a great PnR finisher, but he no longer has the bounce he had when he came into the league. Bebe has both, and hopefully, he doesn't lose that bounce.
    Bismack has been playing with Lowry for maybe 20 games though, so understandable he's getting a feel for the Lowry's style of play. JV, has been playing along side Lowry for years. This isn't an attempt to slander JV in any way, but just to try and recognize why the chemistry isn't there between the pairing.

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  • golden
    replied
    JWash wrote: View Post
    JV doesn't really play above the rim due to both a lack of agility and leaping ability. So it's tougher to get those easy lob plays like Lowry does with Bebe.
    Absolutely. The problem is Lowry's un-predictable style when it comes to passing.

    Bismack "complained" about that issue in a recent article.

    The thing is the unexpected,” the personable centre from the Congo explained after his workout. “(During Tuesday’s practice) I had a conversation with a few players and we were just joking around about it. Sometimes they find the last second to give me the ball when you expect the man to shoot the ball so you can get the offensive rebound.”
    http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...-progress.html

    Lowry is always in score-first mode, with passing as a last option, so the rolling big doesn't really know if/when the pass is coming. Also, because Lowry is small and often waits until he's cornered to pass it, he needs to lob it at a high angle - something that's really hard to appreciate watching games on TV. So the rolling big man really needs to be a superior athlete who is tall & long that can control those imperfect Lowry passes - otherwise Lowry won't make the pass.

    Biyombo is a superior athlete, who lacks height and hands. JV is long and used to be a great PnR finisher, but he no longer has the bounce he had when he came into the league. Bebe has both, and hopefully, he doesn't lose that bounce.
    Last edited by golden; Mon Dec 7, 2015, 12:15 PM.

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  • Axel
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post
    I've not been able to catch the last couple games, but there seems to be a rise in Bebe's stock. I caught some higlights of the GS game and wow did Lowry and Bebe look like they have some real nice chemistry going. I can't help but think that is just something that doesn't jive with JV's game that Lowry isn't able to find him in the pick n' roll as easily as a guy that he hardly plays with. I don't believe in conspiracy theories so I know other players aren't trying to freeze JV out, so my question is... is JV just way too slow and unatheletic to play with our guards? Is he just really bad at positioning himself when he rolls?
    This jives well with something I've been working on this morning.

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  • JWash
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post
    I've not been able to catch the last couple games, but there seems to be a rise in Bebe's stock. I caught some higlights of the GS game and wow did Lowry and Bebe look like they have some real nice chemistry going. I can't help but think that is just something that doesn't jive with JV's game that Lowry isn't able to find him in the pick n' roll as easily as a guy that he hardly plays with. I don't believe in conspiracy theories so I know other players aren't trying to freeze JV out, so my question is... is JV just way too slow and unatheletic to play with our guards? Is he just really bad at positioning himself when he rolls?
    JV doesn't really play above the rim due to both a lack of agility and leaping ability. So it's tougher to get those easy lob plays like Lowry does with Bebe.

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  • Snooch
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post
    I've not been able to catch the last couple games, but there seems to be a rise in Bebe's stock. I caught some higlights of the GS game and wow did Lowry and Bebe look like they have some real nice chemistry going. I can't help but think that is just something that doesn't jive with JV's game that Lowry isn't able to find him in the pick n' roll as easily as a guy that he hardly plays with. I don't believe in conspiracy theories so I know other players aren't trying to freeze JV out, so my question is... is JV just way too slow and unatheletic to play with our guards? Is he just really bad at positioning himself when he rolls?
    Neither

    Its the plays being ran. Lowry does look for iv. Jv is far more heavily guarded though

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  • LJ2
    replied
    I've not been able to catch the last couple games, but there seems to be a rise in Bebe's stock. I caught some higlights of the GS game and wow did Lowry and Bebe look like they have some real nice chemistry going. I can't help but think that is just something that doesn't jive with JV's game that Lowry isn't able to find him in the pick n' roll as easily as a guy that he hardly plays with. I don't believe in conspiracy theories so I know other players aren't trying to freeze JV out, so my question is... is JV just way too slow and unatheletic to play with our guards? Is he just really bad at positioning himself when he rolls?

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  • Wild-ling#1
    replied
    Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    the bolded is tricky. we have no entitlement to know anything. the coaches and gm know what value they place on the players and i would assume they are in constant communication ....
    i don't agree with "if they aren't on the floor they aren't learning anything". for players like powell and bennet, i said it before, that going to the d-league will be pointless. bennet will dominate .... these players need nba coaches and nba talent to practice against.
    The Detroit Red Wings have been famous for "holding players back" - highly touted draft picks who toiled for years before breaking out - as true "stars". They've also long been been dedicated to creating a great environment for recruiting international players.

    Bebe emphasized, in his post-game interviews, that he had been given clear directions as to what to do to succeed ... and been regularly told that his chance would come and he should be ready. And he was so clearly thrilled. Seems to me the Raptors are instilling a "you've gotta earn it in this organization" approach (with JJ too).

    It's an approach one can easily take issue with, at times. Fair enough. But it also seems to demand consistency (in how you treat rookies, not veterans so much). The raps have a lot of young players (and a D-League team now). If they don't send out all their picks/prospects chasing Top FAS, then they've got a lot more coming.

    It's still early days with all this ... but maybe they've got a good plan.

    ("Maybe" is all I'm saying )
    Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Mon Dec 7, 2015, 11:02 AM.

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  • DogeLover1234
    replied
    Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    the bolded is tricky. we have no entitlement to know anything. the coaches and gm know what value they place on the players and i would assume they are in constant communication with what they expect. i think bebe is stayiong on the floor because he screens well, challenges every shot and gets rebounds. the o is just gravy. casey has been pretty clear defensive mistakes will get the pull.

    i went to look to see how much runtime the san antonio rookies are getting and i know they are way ahead in terms of how to run a program but generally team make up is the same with well defined roles that the coach doesn't like seeing players veer away from.

    here is anderson, a nice prospect who could thrive in san antonio.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/.../kyle-anderson
    33 games year one with 10 per and so far 21 games with 10 per

    boban a 27 year old rookie
    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4...ban-marjanovic
    10 games with 3 minutes per

    i don't agree with "if they aren't on the floor they aren't learning anything". for players like powell and bennet, i said it before, that going to the d-league will be pointless. bennet will dominate as he does anyone not as naturally talented as him and powell is also too good for the d-league. these players need nba coaches and nba talent to practice against.
    I agree for rookies there is a lot to be learned from just getting used to a professional lifestyle which i could imagine being tricky. As for your first paragraph, I kind of disagree that they know the value of all the players. In interviews, Bebe has said that he hasn't really played with guys like Lowry and Derozen, presumably because the third stringers typically practice on their own during the season (not entirely sure). So maybe after preseason they have an idea of how good everyone is, but after that for guys like Wright and Powell they don't really know. I imagine if they knew Bebe was going to be a net positive player they would have used him before they did. Granted Bebe did miss training camp.

    Also a big assumption is that Casey plays guys based on their play in practice, rather then how good he actually thinks they are. I'd like to think so, but I don't know.

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  • Miekenstien
    replied
    raptors999 wrote: View Post
    It isn't about learning right now. With JV out, JJ and TRoss playing short minutes Raptors are using an 8 man rotation maybe 9 if you combine Ross and JJ and that's including Bebe. Raptors need minutes from the guys that aren't playing. Oubre and Spieghts got minutes on an undefeated GSW team. Other teams are stretching out rosters while the Raptors are going short even by playoff standards. There are 60 games left
    seems like an argument for jj and ross to get more playing time not rookies then.

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