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Should we look at the triangle offense?

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  • Should we look at the triangle offense?

    This year, Jonas is coming into his own as a low post player and we have two very good guards to work with him. Sounds like Triangle time to me!

    For those that aren't familiar, the triangle offense is a motion offense that is about creating optimal spacing in the half court using a sideline triangle. It has been used very effectively by Phil Jackson with the Bulls and then with the Lakers in recent years.

    Scenario

    Lowry initiates the offense by passing to Derozan who sets up at the three point line on the right side. Lowry then cut's to the strong side corner, using a screen from JV. JV rolls off the screen into the low post while Lowry finishes his cut to the corner. Derozan can now either send it to Jonas for the post up or to Lowry for the corner three (if Lowry's man struggled on the low screen he could be open). If he goes to JV, JV can either take his man in the post or if Lowry's guy comes in to double he can send it to him for the corner three. (option one in the diagram)

    We are also set up to run option 2 with Patterson going to the strong corner for the three and Derozan playing off ball.



    This isn't that different than what we run now, but it places more emphasis on low post play which seems to be becoming JV's biggest offensive strength. It will require him to develop more as a passer but I think it may be the best strategy given our current line up.

    You'd also easily be able to set up Derozan down low on the other block if the matchup was right. Scola is a very good passer and you could have him set up the play with Carroll cutting to the corner. Derozan has shown some ability in the low post over the years and he could be effective in this kind of role. Kobe and Jordan both did similar things when they ran this offense. JV and Bismack are also great offensive rebounders so they would do well attacking the weakside post.

    Thoughts?
    "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

    -Churchill

  • #2
    In a word, no.

    No one has been successful running the triangle without either Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant.

    Every team that tried without those guys, pretty quick, the coach was fired, the offence was scrapped, or both.

    There are lots of motion offences that would take advantage of a balanced scoring attack and our personnel, but this is not one of them.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • #3
      Why?

      There's only one coach in the NBA that can coach that offence and that's Phil Jackson.
      Mamba Mentality

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      • #4
        When we run the three man weave offense?

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        • #5
          Axel wrote: View Post
          In a word, no.

          No one has been successful running the triangle without either Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant.

          Every team that tried without those guys, pretty quick, the coach was fired, the offence was scrapped, or both.

          There are lots of motion offences that would take advantage of a balanced scoring attack and our personnel, but this is not one of them.
          I'm struggling to think of NBA teams that tried to run the triangle and failed. Minnesota tried a few years back I think, with Rambis and failed mainly because their team didn't have the personnel to fit the system. Then the Knicks are also using it over the past couple years. What other teams have tried it?

          Also no one is arguing that MJ and Kobe were not what won those titles but the system they played in shouldn't be overlooked just because the players were elite. The fundamentals of the system reward good post play and that seems to be something we can use. Many of the other motion offences tend to move the focus to guard play and effective dribbling, not to the post. Both the "Princeton" and "Flex" offences are oriented that way.

          You're right that their are other offences that might work well (4-out 1-in comes to mind) but there are a lot of aspects to the triangle that could work well here.


          TRex wrote: View Post
          Why?

          There's only one coach in the NBA that can coach that offence and that's Phil Jackson.
          Anyone can coach it, it's not that complicated (despite what some people say). It's actually used regularly at the college level, it just requires discipline.
          "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

          -Churchill

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          • #6
            Any system is fine, triangle, Princeton, motion, horns anything just implement something so that guys don't stand around looking clueless. And have another action after the first so that if things fall apart guys don't just start going hero ball

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            • #7
              hateslosing wrote: View Post
              I'm struggling to think of NBA teams that tried to run the triangle and failed. Minnesota tried a few years back I think, with Rambis and failed mainly because their team didn't have the personnel to fit the system. Then the Knicks are also using it over the past couple years. What other teams have tried it?

              Also no one is arguing that MJ and Kobe were not what won those titles but the system they played in shouldn't be overlooked just because the players were elite. The fundamentals of the system reward good post play and that seems to be something we can use. Many of the other motion offences tend to move the focus to guard play and effective dribbling, not to the post. Both the "Princeton" and "Flex" offences are oriented that way.

              You're right that their are other offences that might work well (4-out 1-in comes to mind) but there are a lot of aspects to the triangle that could work well here.




              Anyone can coach it, it's not that complicated (despite what some people say). It's actually used regularly at the college level, it just requires discipline.
              Most recent examples are:
              Minnesota with Rambis. Denver with Shaw. NYK with Fisher. Shaw was pushing for Indy to run it too when he was an assistant, but Bird squashed it.

              http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/...ng-tree-tragic

              Ultimately, I see the triangle as a much longer implement time than most systems, and there has yet to have been a successful team that didn't have MJ or Kobe running it. In the NBA, you can't spend 3 years trying to implement a system that may not even be transferable. Did the triangle help MJ and Kobe win, or did MJ and Kobe make the triangle look like a viable option? I don't know, but I do know that no one on the Raps is MJ or Kobe.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • #8
                Axel wrote: View Post
                Most recent examples are:
                Minnesota with Rambis. Denver with Shaw. NYK with Fisher. Shaw was pushing for Indy to run it too when he was an assistant, but Bird squashed it.

                http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/...ng-tree-tragic

                Ultimately, I see the triangle as a much longer implement time than most systems, and there has yet to have been a successful team that didn't have MJ or Kobe running it. In the NBA, you can't spend 3 years trying to implement a system that may not even be transferable. Did the triangle help MJ and Kobe win, or did MJ and Kobe make the triangle look like a viable option? I don't know, but I do know that no one on the Raps is MJ or Kobe.
                Most system just require an action after a double or as the D moves to shut down your best player. It just increases players awareness and BBall IQ. Its usually very simple "rules" that players follow to prevent guys thinking "fuck this, imma shoot now"

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                • #9
                  raptors999 wrote: View Post
                  Most system just require an action after a double or as the D moves to shut down your best player. It just increases players awareness and BBall IQ. Its usually very simple "rules" that players follow to prevent guys thinking "fuck this, imma shoot now"
                  Yes, but the multitude of rules do seem to have an adverse effect, with players suffering paralysis from analysis. For it to be a truly functional offence, you need a few years of running it with the same group. Since I'm not convinced it is actually a viable NBA offence without MJ/Kobe, I'm not willing to invest that much time into it.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Axel wrote: View Post
                    Most recent examples are:
                    Minnesota with Rambis. Denver with Shaw. NYK with Fisher. Shaw was pushing for Indy to run it too when he was an assistant, but Bird squashed it.

                    http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/...ng-tree-tragic

                    Ultimately, I see the triangle as a much longer implement time than most systems, and there has yet to have been a successful team that didn't have MJ or Kobe running it. In the NBA, you can't spend 3 years trying to implement a system that may not even be transferable. Did the triangle help MJ and Kobe win, or did MJ and Kobe make the triangle look like a viable option? I don't know, but I do know that no one on the Raps is MJ or Kobe.
                    I don't disagree with anything here, it is definitely an offense that takes time to get in and we would probably have to wait until the offseason to implement it completely. I'd also agree that players win titles not offensive systems. I just think that the triangle, just based on it's own merits as an offensive system, could be very effective in Toronto and could work better than our current system.
                    "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                    -Churchill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Axel wrote: View Post
                      Yes, but the multitude of rules do seem to have an adverse effect, with players suffering paralysis from analysis. For it to be a truly functional offence, you need a few years of running it with the same group. Since I'm not convinced it is actually a viable NBA offence without MJ/Kobe, I'm not willing to invest that much time into it.
                      MU seems really about continuity and very few roster turnovers. In order to have a system you need a GM that values guys in place. Rocket could never implement a system with the philosophy of Harden + Howard + lots of movable parts. If you have guys who stay their entire contract run something just to have an identity to fit players into. Like the D, once you have a functional one in place you just need to tweak it

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                      • #12
                        hateslosing wrote: View Post
                        I don't disagree with anything here, it is definitely an offense that takes time to get in and we would probably have to wait until the offseason to implement it completely. I'd also agree that players win titles not offensive systems. I just think that the triangle, just based on it's own merits as an offensive system, could be very effective in Toronto and could work better than our current system.
                        Depends on whether you consider the current system as this year or last year.

                        Triangle over ISO hero ball but not exactly the top of my wish list.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                        • #13
                          Axel wrote: View Post
                          Depends on whether you consider the current system as this year or last year.

                          Triangle over ISO hero ball but not exactly the top of my wish list.
                          What are we running right now? I think it's supposed to be some type of motion offense but I'm not sure. Any chance of a front page article on the subject?
                          "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                          -Churchill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            hateslosing wrote: View Post
                            What are we running right now? I think it's supposed to be some type of motion offense but I'm not sure. Any chance of a front page article on the subject?
                            No idea. I rarely check the front page lol.

                            Hard to say exactly what we are running with such a small sample so far.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm not sure you can implement the triangle mid-season. We basically need an entire summer with the roster studying it, working on it during camp, and spending the first 40 games of the regular season deploying it. It feels like we're already 6 months behind for such a drastic change.

                              Besides, it's not like our offense is struggling right now.

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