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Game #11: Toronto Raptors 101 - Sacramento Kings 107

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  • Axel wrote: View Post
    Hindsight is a cop out explanation for a bad judgement call when the results are as predicted.

    You are right in saying that Casey made a judgement call, but with the wealth of evidence that has already been presented, it wasn't a particularly good call to make. Really, he played a hunch against the odds and it failed. That is why hindsight is irrelevant imo. So really, Casey demonstrated poor judgement, by either believing the opposite of what many would have predicted or by incorrectly guessing that his hunch would play out. Considering the wealth of blunders and poor game time decisions he has made during his tenure, hard to give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was simply a hunch gone wrong.

    But even if all of those things were true, why keep Biyombo in there all that time? Surely at some point while the 10 point lead was evaporating there was opportunity to read the situation and try to remedy it by playing JV. When the game is slipping away, your defence can't get a stop and your offence can't find space, how is it defendable to do nothing? Even if it were JV in and Biyombo on the bench, doing nothing and watching that lead dwindle is bad coaching. The fact that is was Biyombo and for such a long stretch merely exasperates the situation.

    I am with you that he played a hunch against the odds.. but to say that it wouldn't work before the event finished is simply a binary yes or no guess. After the events have finished (or in hindsight) you can apply judgement based what actually happened not what you think might happen which makes the premise of using 20/20 hindsight relevant.

    Why did he keep BB in there for the full 18 ?
    Being stubborn ? JV not feeling good and he told him that ? Felt that with a number of TO's called that would gave Biz time to get his wind ? Kyle and DD said we will get you points if you need them coach ?
    Could be anything...and its pretty likely only Casey knows why but we are likely not going to be privy to the answer directly from him.

    and its exacerbates.. not exasperates..
    "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

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    • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
      I am with you that he played a hunch against the odds.. but to say that it wouldn't work before the event finished is simply a binary yes or no guess. After the events have finished (or in hindsight) you can apply judgement based what actually happened not what you think might happen which makes the premise of using 20/20 hindsight relevant.

      Why did he keep BB in there for the full 18 ?
      Being stubborn ? JV not feeling good and he told him that ? Felt that with a number of TO's called that would gave Biz time to get his wind ? Kyle and DD said we will get you points if you need them coach ?
      Could be anything...and its pretty likely only Casey knows why but we are likely not going to be privy to the answer directly from him.

      and its exacerbates.. not exasperates..
      Biyombo effect on offense was apparent to everyone and the doubling of the ball handler pretty obvious. JV taking a three is a chance but having him launch and miss for 18 minutes is just dumb

      Comment


      • Here's the thing. Casey didn't make one bad decision. He made a bad decision with about 6 minutes or so left and the lead slipping away, not to put JV in for Biyombo. Then, a minute or less later, he again made a bad decision, with even more info showing that the offence was dying with BB out there, not to sub in JV. Then, less than a minute later, he again made a very bad decision in not putting JV in. And again, and again, and again. Until it was too late.

        That's not a blunder. That's a tactical decision not to adjust to what is happening in the game. It's madness. Everyone and their uncle could see that the Raptors would lose if Biyombo stayed out there - frankly, it was impressive the Raptors scored as many points as they did down the stretch with the way the offence looked - every shot was a very, very difficult shot. To say "well, if they scored 12 instead of 8 no one would be complaining" is a) false, if the team played like crap like that and almost blew a 10 point lead I'd be almost as pissed as if they blew it, and b) completely ignoring the context of those possessions. It would have been a miracle for the team to score 12 points the way they were playing.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
          I am with you that he played a hunch against the odds.. but to say that it wouldn't work before the event finished is simply a binary yes or no guess. After the events have finished (or in hindsight) you can apply judgement based what actually happened not what you think might happen which makes the premise of using 20/20 hindsight relevant.

          Why did he keep BB in there for the full 18 ?
          Being stubborn ? JV not feeling good and he told him that ? Felt that with a number of TO's called that would gave Biz time to get his wind ? Kyle and DD said we will get you points if you need them coach ?
          Could be anything...and its pretty likely only Casey knows why but we are likely not going to be privy to the answer directly from him.

          and its exacerbates.. not exasperates..
          It's not really just a guess when the exact reasons it appeared to have failed have been discussed numerous times over the last few weeks. It wasn't even remotely a surprise to see the offence struggle with him on the court as defences have been ignoring him and putting more pressure on his teammates to produce. There have been multiple posts showing the negative affect he has had on shooting %s. His D has also proven to not be as good as many had hoped. Based on these factors, it was easily predictable that his hunch would fail. Again, to call it a hindsight situation is an insult to the many intelligent people who raised these concerns. It is a poor attempt to deflect the real concerns that have been raised by dismissing them as "you won't know till it's over".

          This initial poor decision was compounded by Casey's stubbornness to not adjust when it was clear that Biyombo wasn't working.

          So Casey demonstrated both the poor judgement initially and continually. Your attempt to discount the concerns of others makes you seem naive. Your attempt to correct my spelling make you seem like something else entirely.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

          Comment


          • Axel wrote: View Post
            It's not really just a guess when the exact reasons it appeared to have failed have been discussed numerous times over the last few weeks. It wasn't even remotely a surprise to see the offence struggle with him on the court as defences have been ignoring him and putting more pressure on his teammates to produce. There have been multiple posts showing the negative affect he has had on shooting %s. His D has also proven to not be as good as many had hoped. Based on these factors, it was easily predictable that his hunch would fail. Again, to call it a hindsight situation is an insult to the many intelligent people who raised these concerns. It is a poor attempt to deflect the real concerns that have been raised by dismissing them as "you won't know till it's over".

            This initial poor decision was compounded by Casey's stubbornness to not adjust when it was clear that Biyombo wasn't working.

            So Casey demonstrated both the poor judgement initially and continually. Your attempt to discount the concerns of others makes you seem naive. Your attempt to correct my spelling make you seem like something else entirely.
            Now that is a harumph of imperial stature. Didn't realize that I was upsetting the applecart so much. Sorry.. Just hold a different point of view than you.
            It was prissy on my part to correct a likely autocorrect.
            "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

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            • careful buddy, you go against the common opinion here in this forum, the natives get restless.

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              • Superjudge wrote: View Post
                careful buddy, you go against the common sense here in this forum, the natives get restless.

                Fixed it.

                Comment


                • DanH wrote: View Post
                  Here's the thing. Casey didn't make one bad decision. He made a bad decision with about 6 minutes or so left and the lead slipping away, not to put JV in for Biyombo. Then, a minute or less later, he again made a bad decision, with even more info showing that the offence was dying with BB out there, not to sub in JV. Then, less than a minute later, he again made a very bad decision in not putting JV in. And again, and again, and again. Until it was too late.

                  That's not a blunder. That's a tactical decision not to adjust to what is happening in the game. It's madness. Everyone and their uncle could see that the Raptors would lose if Biyombo stayed out there - frankly, it was impressive the Raptors scored as many points as they did down the stretch with the way the offence looked - every shot was a very, very difficult shot. To say "well, if they scored 12 instead of 8 no one would be complaining" is a) false, if the team played like crap like that and almost blew a 10 point lead I'd be almost as pissed as if they blew it, and b) completely ignoring the context of those possessions. It would have been a miracle for the team to score 12 points the way they were playing.
                  I guess he just saw it differently than you do.
                  As to your thought that if they did win no one would be complaining. Your correct. This is Toronto. The sports fans in this city have such an inferiority complex that we whine bitch and complain about everything. Even winning and how we win. So when a hunch is played or a risk is taken" in game" and it goes PFFT like it did the other night and it results in a really disheartening loss then the knives really come out. Warranted or not.
                  In hindsight criticism is warranted as they effed up on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. So be it. Its not an algorithmic board game. Its played by humans who miss assignments and blow coverages and miss shots. He tried something risky and it didn't work. Shit. Maybe learn from it and move on.
                  Casey will eventually be relieved of his duties as head coach. All coaches usually are. He will be removed for the usual reasons. He didn't win enough. His message was falling on deaf ears in the room and the team was unresponsive. Its easier to take out one guy rather than 12. But he won't be whacked because of a failed tactical decision not to adjust to what is happening in one game in the middle of November. Like all of us in the stands .. he just wants to win. His job which I think he really likes depends on it. It just didn't work out for him vs Sacto.
                  Last edited by Demographic Shift; Tue Nov 17, 2015, 11:08 PM.
                  "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

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                  • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                    Fixed it.
                    thats pretty funny

                    Comment


                    • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                      I guess he just saw it differently than you do.
                      As to your thought that if they did win no one would be complaining. Your correct. This is Toronto. The sports fans in this city have such an inferiority complex that we whine bitch and complain about everything. Even winning and how we win. So when a hunch is played or a risk is taken" in game" and it goes PFFT like it did the other night and it results in a really disheartening loss then the knives really come out. Warranted or not.
                      In hindsight criticism is warranted as they effed up on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. So be it. Its not an algorithmic board game. Its played by humans who miss assignments and blow coverages and miss shots. He tried something risky and it didn't work. Shit. Maybe learn from it and move on.
                      Casey will eventually be relieved of his duties as head coach. All coaches usually are. He will be removed for the usual reasons. He didn't win enough. His message was falling on deaf ears in the room and the team was unresponsive. Its easier to take out one guy rather than 12. But he won't be whacked because of a failed tactical decision not to adjust to what is happening in one game in the middle of November. Like all of us in the stands .. he just wants to win. His job which I think he really likes depends on it. It just didn't work out for him vs Sacto.
                      See, if there was any evidence at all that Casey learns from his mistakes, then that would be a silver lining I could buy into. There is no such evidence.

                      Again, he didn't try something, then it didn't work. He tried something, it didn't work, he stuck with it, it didn't work, he stuck with it more, it didn't work, he stuck with it beyond what anyone would, it didn't work, he blew a ten point cushion in the 4th Q and turned a win into a loss.

                      And again, you keep referencing these criticisms as hindsight. Hindsight has nothing to do with it. I was yelling at the TV to get Biyombo out of there from the 6 minute mark onwards, in disbelief that this was even happening. You don't need hindsight to know insanity when it is happening live.

                      Wait, so now levelling criticism in a win is whining and complaining? How accurate did the criticisms of the early season wins last year turn out to be?

                      I never claimed Casey would be fired because of a tactical mistake. He should be fired for the dozens of tactical mistakes, the complete mess he consistently makes of his rotations, his various ridiculous offensive and defensive schemes, his lack of accountability (both for himself in the media and for his players on the floor) and his complete lack of playoff success. He will eventually be let go for the reasons you stated instead. That sadly does not reduce how frustrating it is to watch a guy get paid 4 million dollars a year to piss away wins with stupid, stupid moves.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        See, if there was any evidence at all that Casey learns from his mistakes, then that would be a silver lining I could buy into. There is no such evidence.

                        Again, he didn't try something, then it didn't work. He tried something, it didn't work, he stuck with it, it didn't work, he stuck with it more, it didn't work, he stuck with it beyond what anyone would, it didn't work, he blew a ten point cushion in the 4th Q and turned a win into a loss.

                        And again, you keep referencing these criticisms as hindsight. Hindsight has nothing to do with it. I was yelling at the TV to get Biyombo out of there from the 6 minute mark onwards, in disbelief that this was even happening. You don't need hindsight to know insanity when it is happening live.

                        Wait, so now levelling criticism in a win is whining and complaining? How accurate did the criticisms of the early season wins last year turn out to be?

                        I never claimed Casey would be fired because of a tactical mistake. He should be fired for the dozens of tactical mistakes, the complete mess he consistently makes of his rotations, his various ridiculous offensive and defensive schemes, his lack of accountability (both for himself in the media and for his players on the floor) and his complete lack of playoff success. He will eventually be let go for the reasons you stated instead. That sadly does not reduce how frustrating it is to watch a guy get paid 4 million dollars a year to piss away wins with stupid, stupid moves.
                        Sounds like you need a snickers Dan.
                        I am awestruck by your ability to see from inception each and every mistake the team makes.
                        Its incredible.
                        Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Nov 18, 2015, 12:57 AM.
                        "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

                        Comment


                        • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                          I guess he just saw it differently than you do.
                          Yes he did. Once again the fans could see the iceberg coming from miles away and our captain either couldn't or wouldn't. Either way, not comforting.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                          Comment


                          • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                            Sounds like you need a snickers Dan.
                            I am awestruck by your ability to see from inception each and every mistake the team makes.
                            Its incredible.
                            Some of the mistakes are quite obvious and some are repeats from seasons/games past.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                            Comment


                            • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                              Sounds like you need a snickers Dan.
                              I am awestruck by your ability to see from inception each and every mistake the team makes.
                              Its incredible.
                              sarcasm isn't going to win this argument for you.

                              I don't know how you can watch this team and not realize the coaching is at best highly suspect and at worst completely counterproductive?

                              Comment


                              • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                                That is exactly the discussion premise... That Casey made a decision and it didn't work out...I filled in why he might have made that decision..... How this went sideways into a discussion of JV being not used enough in a macro context and Casey being bereft of any semblance of basketball accumen because he took a risky decision is a byproduct of folks who keep grinding the same axe over and over again...
                                Its either
                                a) Casey is a really bad coach and is singularly responsible for everything that ails the Raptors including global warming .
                                or for a refreshing change of pace
                                b)DD is singularly responsible for any loss that Casey is not responsible for because he is an inefficient volume scorer who isn't worth the money he wants....

                                Just went with the flow and gave a contrary view to give the faithful another perspective..

                                Edit...Here.. just saw this.. The defense rests.
                                Casey's a terrible coach, worse because everyone knows Biyombo in the fourth will not be just one time. The one time it works will lead to the 10 times it doesn't. Just like Demars bad shots. The small % that works feeds the high % that doesn't.

                                Just went with the flow and gave a contrary view to give the faithful a.nother perspective..



                                Yes.. your correct.. Casey made a real time in game decision.. it was a risky one that went Pfft.. thats to bad for the team as we lost.. however there is NO guarantee we would have won if he played JV either...I ventured in a post why he might have done it.. You'd have thought I advocated turning babies and puppies into an alternative fuel for luxury cars. So I just took the time to explain why .. and why.. and why again... Glad you got it.. We should be done.




                                Not at all. .anyone... fans included .. are free to comment on the outcome of a game and what they think went wrong or right. We are fans after all. As for me its not in my DNA to back away when I think I am right. I feel like Oblio on this board but I say what I think and its not inflamatory for the sake of it...

                                Look forward to a continued exchange of points of view... and there likely will be as there are 71 to go.
                                As an aside...Thanks for not trying to convert me to the one true path by calling me foolish or stupid.
                                No one says singularly responsible for loses...but majorly responsible

                                Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

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