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Game #11: Toronto Raptors 101 - Sacramento Kings 107

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  • Snooch wrote: View Post
    No one says singularly responsible for loses...but majorly responsible

    Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk
    People who have a grasp of the language do.
    "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

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    • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
      That is exactly the discussion premise... That Casey made a decision and it didn't work out...I filled in why he might have made that decision..... How this went sideways into a discussion of JV being not used enough in a macro context and Casey being bereft of any semblance of basketball accumen because he took a risky decision is a byproduct of folks who keep grinding the same axe over and over again...
      Its either
      a) Casey is a really bad coach and is singularly responsible for everything that ails the Raptors including global warming .
      or for a refreshing change of pace
      b)DD is singularly responsible for any loss that Casey is not responsible for because he is an inefficient volume scorer who isn't worth the money he wants....

      Just went with the flow and gave a contrary view to give the faithful another perspective..

      I think it's pretty clear that you jumped into the argument with bias on multiple fronts.

      Nothing you mentioned above has anything to do with the post-game points I raised. I said nothing about JV or DeRozan, nor did my comments about Casey extend beyond the final 19 minutes of the Sacramento game.

      The crux of my complaint was that no player should ever play 18 minutes straight, especially when they're not being effective on one end of the court, while being a blatant liability on the other end of the court. I don't care who the player is or what other player(s) should be subbed-in to replace him (I understand that JV was inferred, given the circumstances).

      Leaving a tired, ineffective player in the game that long is bad coaching, regardless of the team, sport, level of competition, etc... plain and simple. Biyombo is a career backup who is known throughout the league to have some of the worst hands in the NBA, who had already shown in his brief tenure in Toronto to be horrendous offensively, even in the few games leading up to the Sacramento game.

      This wasn't a surprise. This wasn't an ingenious strategy gone wrong. This wasn't a 50/50 decision that went sideways. It was bad coaching that achieved expected results.

      Comment


      • KHD wrote: View Post
        sarcasm isn't going to win this argument for you.

        I don't know how you can watch this team and not realize the coaching is at best highly suspect and at worst completely counterproductive?

        And I don't know why it's your mission to tell me why I need to conform to a set of preconceived biases that I don't share.
        "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

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        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          I think it's pretty clear that you jumped into the argument with bias on multiple fronts.

          Nothing you mentioned above has anything to do with the post-game points I raised. I said nothing about JV or DeRozan, nor did my comments about Casey extend beyond the final 19 minutes of the Sacramento game.

          The crux of my complaint was that no player should ever play 18 minutes straight, especially when they're not being effective on one end of the court, while being a blatant liability on the other end of the court. I don't care who the player is or what other player(s) should be subbed-in to replace him (I understand that JV was inferred, given the circumstances).

          Leaving a tired, ineffective player in the game that long is bad coaching, regardless of the team, sport, level of competition, etc... plain and simple. Biyombo is a career backup who is known throughout the league to have some of the worst hands in the NBA, who had already shown in his brief tenure in Toronto to be horrendous offensively, even in the few games leading up to the Sacramento game.

          This wasn't a surprise. This wasn't an ingenious strategy gone wrong. This wasn't a 50/50 decision that went sideways. It was bad coaching that achieved expected results.
          Jumped into an argument. Thats rich !
          I had the temerity to put up an explanation as to why a decision might have been made.
          That was an opinion or a point of view. Perhaps not you but several of the caseyndemarsuck tribe told me that I shouldn't talk blasphemy and that it would be better to conform to because..well..we ALL know Casey and Demare are responsible for every bad thing that happens around the team.
          So you believe that playing an offensively challenged guy for 18 minutes is wrong. That's OK. It's your view and you put your reasons down for why you think that. Not once have I said your wrong about your opinion. I put some thoughts down as to why it might have come to that choice.
          Yet the tribe doesn't seem to want to let an alternative view stand without saying how wrong it is.
          It would seem that dissent in the Republic is unwelcome
          What's the lyric..conform or be cast out?

          I am going to assume you hold some level of responsibility in an organization somewhere. Telling people what to think will not be received well.
          "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

          Comment


          • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
            And I don't know why it's your mission to tell me why I need to conform to a set of preconceived biases that I don't share.
            taking data (watching the games) and making a conclusion (the coach is awful) is not a preconceived bias. but nice strawman.

            Comment


            • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
              Jumped into an argument. Thats rich !
              I had the temerity to put up an explanation as to why a decision might have been made.
              That was an opinion or a point of view. Perhaps not you but several of the caseyndemarsuck tribe told me that I shouldn't talk blasphemy and that it would be better to conform to because..well..we ALL know Casey and Demare are responsible for every bad thing that happens around the team.
              So you believe that playing an offensively challenged guy for 18 minutes is wrong. That's OK. It's your view and you put your reasons down for why you think that. Not once have I said your wrong about your opinion. I put some thoughts down as to why it might have come to that choice.
              Yet the tribe doesn't seem to want to let an alternative view stand without saying how wrong it is.
              It would seem that dissent in the Republic is unwelcome
              What's the lyric..conform or be cast out?

              I am going to assume you hold some level of responsibility in an organization somewhere. Telling people what to think will not be received well.
              You honestly believe that playing any player for 18 straight minutes is good coaching? If so, I'm honestly curious why you think that way.

              I don't think anybody has disagreed about why Casey likely made his decisions. I think most people have questioned the thought process or rationale behind those decisions, and have put forth logical and statistical arguments as to why his decision seems to fly in the face of the very rationale you put forth.


              ---

              Lets say that Casey decided to wear sunglasses while driving at night.

              I'm arguing that sunglasses are useless at night because there's no sun, and that they could actually lead to an accident due to the decreased vision that they'd cause him.

              You seem to be arguing that Casey had reasons to wear sunglasses at night that he felt were justified, and that the accident he caused was a completely random occurrence that not even Nostradamus could have predicted.

              It's not the existence of reasons that anti-Casey folks are debating, but rather the rationale that lead to those reasons resulting in the decision being made to wear them. You haven't really stated any points to support the decision, other than to say he had his reasons.

              Comment


              • KHD wrote: View Post
                taking data (watching the games) and making a conclusion (the coach is awful) is not a preconceived bias. but nice strawman.
                Taking data (watching the games) and making a different conclusion (the team lacks an alpha player as opposed to having a poor coach) is also not a preconceived bias and a nice straw man...

                However there may be hope for the caseyndemarsuck tribe as Houston just whacked McHale 11 games in after getting to the conference finals last year. He must have got unsalvageabley stupid in those 11 games or his players aren't as good as they think they are or they just quit on him. Clearly McHales fault.
                "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

                Comment


                • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                  Taking data (watching the games) and making a different conclusion (the team lacks an alpha player as opposed to having a poor coach) is also not a preconceived bias and a nice straw man...

                  However there may be hope for the caseyndemarsuck tribe as Houston just whacked McHale 11 games in after getting to the conference finals last year. He must have got unsalvageabley stupid in those 11 games or his players aren't as good as they think they are or they just quit on him. Clearly McHales fault.
                  yeah, you may want to look up the definition of straw man. I didn't accuse you of having a preconceived bias, I just don't understand why you're making the argument you've given. Because, as CRF said, you haven't actually given any points beyond "he had reasons".

                  McHale was fired because he has, this season, failed to do the only thing he has ever been good at: motivating his team. He was already garbage at in-game coaching.

                  Comment


                  • KHD wrote: View Post
                    yeah, you may want to look up the definition of straw man. I didn't accuse you of having a preconceived bias, I just don't understand why you're making the argument you've given. Because, as CRF said, you haven't actually given any points beyond "he had reasons".

                    McHale was fired because he has, this season, failed to do the only thing he has ever been good at: motivating his team. He was already garbage at in-game coaching.
                    Good thing you have your big brother CRF to make your points for you. God forbid you have your own ideas.
                    McHale may have been whacked because ownership in Houston panicked out of the gate. Perhaps they thought they were going to the finals this year after reaching the WCF last year and Dwight Howard isn't getting any younger. The gap between expectations and what was transpiring was wide enough that Houston fired him. Or maybe it was because of his in game substitutions during game 9 ? Who knows ?

                    Curious.. even though he is garbage at in-game coaching as you put out there (one of Dwanes sins I believe we have seen spoken about ad nauseum in the Republic) Kevin McHale is now being talked up as bona fide candidate on other threads (Thread: Potential Coaching Candidates) to replace Dwane, even though he has the same issues as the guy you want put under the bus.
                    "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

                    Comment


                    • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      You honestly believe that playing any player for 18 straight minutes is good coaching? If so, I'm honestly curious why you think that way.

                      I don't think anybody has disagreed about why Casey likely made his decisions. I think most people have questioned the thought process or rationale behind those decisions, and have put forth logical and statistical arguments as to why his decision seems to fly in the face of the very rationale you put forth.
                      ---

                      .
                      Consider that perhaps he may initially have been forced into it. Jonas was not having a particularly good night offensively. A pretty pedestrian 2 for 9 and 5 boards. Casey isn’t as big a dummy as most portray him to be and very clearly knows Biz is brutal on the offensive end but then how much worse could it be than 2 of 9 that you got from your number 1. Factor in JV wasn’t having much success holding Cousins off the scoresheet. Some nights you know you don’t have it. Your teammates know and as sure as there is going to be snow in Winnipeg in December the coach knows. JV didn’t have it Sunday. So Biz becomes an option here. We are up by 3 at the quarter and Biz had played ~ 9 minutes and he was ready to go. The other option (the never ending project Bebe Noguriea) is in Fort Wayne on assignment. So you make your decision and its Biz going in. You talk to your go to guys (DD and Kyle) that your going to need them to carry the load as BB is going in. Your two guys look up and say .. we got it coach.
                      So whaddaya know Biz goes in and the lead gets stretched to 10 at the 7 minute mark. Biz has now played 14 minutes but its been broken up with a blow at the quarter and two full time outs taken at the 10 and 8 minute marks. He’s 23. Hes got legs and we are up 10. OK here we go. Biz your back in. In this scenario thats the gamble..that Biz would continue to hold up the defensive end (Sacto had 4 points in 5 minutes) and Casey would ride this out and have his defense win it for him. Time ticks on .. Sacto starts to closes the gap but still .. its two possession game with 3ish to go and we have the ball. However there is still time to sub out Biz and put in a now cold as ice JV off the bench. Tough call. Decision made again to stay with Biz and defense rather than JV to try to win it with offense. As we all painfully saw it went PFFT.. We lost guys in switches for two wide open under the basket dunks and DD and Kyle couldn’t carry the load. We got nada/niente/zappo points the rest of the way. The gamble/decision didn’t pan out. We lost. Rats. Heartbreaker. On to the next one.
                      From my viewpoint its a plausible strategy in the context of how the game was playing out. Its not always about algorithms and analytics as the game is unfolding at speed with plenty of human variables in play. I think I have said this in staccato fashion amongst the various posts in this long tennis match. You don’t have to agree with this view point or support it.

                      It is what it is.
                      Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Nov 18, 2015, 04:52 PM.
                      "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

                      Comment


                      • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                        Good thing you have your big brother CRF to make your points for you. God forbid you have your own ideas.
                        McHale may have been whacked because ownership in Houston panicked out of the gate. Perhaps they thought they were going to the finals this year after reaching the WCF last year and Dwight Howard isn't getting any younger. The gap between expectations and what was transpiring was wide enough that Houston fired him. Or maybe it was because of his in game substitutions during game 9 ? Who knows ?

                        Curious.. even though he is garbage at in-game coaching as you put out there (one of Dwanes sins I believe we have seen spoken about ad nauseum in the Republic) Kevin McHale is now being talked up as bona fide candidate on other threads (Thread: Potential Coaching Candidates) to replace Dwane, even though he has the same issues as the guy you want put under the bus.
                        McHale, Whitman, Casey all meh and pretty similar in terms of where they would take the team.

                        Comment


                        • raptors999 wrote: View Post
                          McHale, Whitman, Casey all meh and pretty similar in terms of where they would take the team.
                          For what its worth... I think if a player the caliber of a Stephan Curry or Kevin Durant suits up for the Raps then anyone of those above mentioned guys becomes a coaching genius.
                          "We can grow the economy not from the top down the way Mr. Harper wants to... but from the heart outwards". ---- Justin Trudeau 2015

                          Comment


                          • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                            Good thing you have your big brother CRF to make your points for you. God forbid you have your own ideas.
                            McHale may have been whacked because ownership in Houston panicked out of the gate. Perhaps they thought they were going to the finals this year after reaching the WCF last year and Dwight Howard isn't getting any younger. The gap between expectations and what was transpiring was wide enough that Houston fired him. Or maybe it was because of his in game substitutions during game 9 ? Who knows ?

                            Curious.. even though he is garbage at in-game coaching as you put out there (one of Dwanes sins I believe we have seen spoken about ad nauseum in the Republic) Kevin McHale is now being talked up as bona fide candidate on other threads (Thread: Potential Coaching Candidates) to replace Dwane, even though he has the same issues as the guy you want put under the bus.
                            oh the irony.

                            who is advocating for kevin mchale to replace casey? there was like, 1 comment about him being a good candidate because he'd use Valanciunas more, then a bunch of people pointing out how bad McHale is. Not exactly a serious "talking up". But, it does make yet another straw man for you to put up and knock down.

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                            • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                              For what its worth... I think if a player the caliber of a Stephan Curry or Kevin Durant suits up for the Raps then anyone of those above mentioned guys becomes a coaching genius.
                              McHale has harden and howard. not quite Curry i guess, but it should have been enough to make him look like a "coaching genius". But, Houston fans have been complaining about his strategies for 2 years.

                              I just don't see it. Sure, they'd win some games and maybe even some playoff rounds. But i don't think they'd ever reach their potential.
                              Last edited by KHD; Wed Nov 18, 2015, 04:57 PM.

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                              • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                                For what its worth... I think if a player the caliber of a Stephan Curry or Kevin Durant suits up for the Raps then anyone of those above mentioned guys becomes a coaching genius.
                                Going ISO with Curry and Durant wins a lot of games but don't think either is as good in ISO as Wall or Harden. Wall can't shoot yet makes players around him better and nobody does ISO like Harden. Just calling it ISO when it is one guy dribbling into a defense even if guys are spaced around for a pass. Maybe RR needs a better term

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