Game #11: Toronto Raptors 101 - Sacramento Kings 107

[Demographic Shift]

Oh my god man, stop this "we're only X amount of games in".

This is the 4th straight year of JV playing under 30 minutes a game. This is Casey's 5th season with the team. We are not 11 games in, we're actually about 234 games in.

JV has played 30 or more minutes 83 times... out of a possible 234 games. So about 35% of the time in his career (hey, that's Caseyball efficency).

Would you consider that maybe our boy isn't as good or polished enough to play more minutes than he is...
His ability to catch the ball in traffic still needs to get better... his offensive game while improving year to year is still not good enough to have the offense run through him ... his court vision in the passing game is still developing.
Would he have been a better choice to try to close out Sacto ? Given 20/20 hindsight it kinda looks that way.. but if we get even 12 points on offense and get a couple of stops and hold Sacto to a very do-able 18 pts in 7 minutes Raps win and this conversation doesn't happen.

I get it.. Caseys' not your guy.. not your choice... just keep an open mind and be less dogmatic in the mantra that whatever the problem is .. Casey is the reason for it.

[Mindlessness]

Would you consider that maybe our boy isn't as good or polished enough to play more minutes than he is...
His ability to catch the ball in traffic still needs to get better... his offensive game while improving year to year is still not good enough to have the offense run through him ... his court vision in the passing game is still developing.
Would he have been a better choice to try to close out Sacto ? Given 20/20 hindsight it kinda looks that way.. but if we get even 12 points on offense and get a couple of stops and hold Sacto to a very do-able 18 pts in 7 minutes Raps win and this conversation doesn't happen.

I get it.. Caseys' not your guy.. not your choice... just keep an open mind and be less dogmatic in the mantra that whatever the problem is .. Casey is the reason for it.

I just considered it, and logic was lolnope why the fuck wouldn't you play one pf your best players more?

Even if Drummond deserves those kinds of minutes more, or even if Drummond is better, does it really mean you tell one of your best players "hey you suck in comparison to this guy, so you don't deserve the same amount of minutes". It sounds absolutely insane. It's like Frank Vogel telling Paul George "hey you suck compared to LeBron, we're gonna play you around 30 MPG instead", or telling Terry Stotts telling Damian Lillard "you suck compared to Steph Curry, we're gonna play you around 25 MPG instead", it's absolutely stupid.

[Henry_Chinaski]

Would you consider that maybe our boy isn't as good or polished enough to play more minutes than he is...
His ability to catch the ball in traffic still needs to get better... his offensive game while improving year to year is still not good enough to have the offense run through him ... his court vision in the passing game is still developing.
Would he have been a better choice to try to close out Sacto ? Given 20/20 hindsight it kinda looks that way.. but if we get even 12 points on offense and get a couple of stops and hold Sacto to a very do-able 18 pts in 7 minutes Raps win and this conversation doesn't happen.

I get it.. Caseys' not your guy.. not your choice... just keep an open mind and be less dogmatic in the mantra that whatever the problem is .. Casey is the reason for it.

Off course he has to improve in certain areas. That's not the point. Playing Biz over Jonas is the point. Playing Biz for 18 straight minutes is the point. So far, Raptors are better with Jonas on both ends of the floor than without him.

[CB4Champ]

Oh my god man, stop this "we're only X amount of games in".

This is the 4th straight year of JV playing under 30 minutes a game. This is Casey's 5th season with the team. We are not 11 games in, we're actually about 234 games in.

JV has played 30 or more minutes 83 times... out of a possible 234 games. So about 35% of the time in his career (hey, that's Caseyball efficency).

Good Post fam.

[Demographic Shift]

I just considered it, and logic was lolnope why the fuck wouldn't you play one pf your best players more?

Even if Drummond deserves those kinds of minutes more, or even if Drummond is better, does it really mean you tell one of your best players "hey you suck in comparison to this guy, so you don't deserve the same amount of minutes". It sounds absolutely insane. It's like Frank Vogel telling Paul George "hey you suck compared to LeBron, we're gonna play you around 30 MPG instead", or telling Terry Stotts telling Damian Lillard "you suck compared to Steph Curry, we're gonna play you around 25 MPG instead", it's absolutely stupid.

He plays 28 Mins per game .. 11 games in....
For compares here is what other C's are getting... other than Drummond.. he seems to play as much as everyone else.
Horford plays 31
P.Gasol plays 30
Mozgov plays 21
Whiteside plays 29
Drummond plays 37
D Jordan plays 31
M.Gasol plays 32
Towns plays 29
Okafor plays 33
Gortat plays 27
Vucevic plays 31
Duncan plays 27
Howard plays 31

Looks like he is about 2 minutes short of average..
2 minutes .... Do you think its reasonable to expect that he would change the course of every game with 2 more minutes ? You seem convinced it would be. I just remain a little more skeptical than you on the impact two more minutes of floor time would have.

[Demographic Shift]

Off course he has to improve in certain areas. That's not the point. Playing Biz over Jonas is the point. Playing Biz for 18 straight minutes is the point. So far, Raptors are better with Jonas on both ends of the floor than without him.

I tried to cover why that might have happened with my post 544. Why Biz played out the game while JV ate pine.

[Miekenstien]

He plays 28 Mins per game .. 11 games in....
For compares here is what other C's are getting... other than Drummond.. he seems to play as much as everyone else.
Horford plays 31
P.Gasol plays 30
Mozgov plays 21
Whiteside plays 29
Drummond plays 37
D Jordan plays 31
M.Gasol plays 32
Towns plays 29
Okafor plays 33
Gortat plays 27
Vucevic plays 31
Duncan plays 27
Howard plays 31

Looks like he is about 2 minutes short of average..
2 minutes .... Do you think its reasonable to expect that he would change the course of every game with 2 more minutes ? You seem convinced it would be. I just remain a little more skeptical than you on the impact two more minutes of floor time would have.

get that reality out of here

[The Great One]

The Celtics are now 6-4.

[charlesnba23]

After that game I'd be fine with a Demar trade.

ZBo

[hotfuzz]

Would you consider that maybe our boy isn't as good or polished enough to play more minutes than he is...
His ability to catch the ball in traffic still needs to get better... his offensive game while improving year to year is still not good enough to have the offense run through him ... his court vision in the passing game is still developing.
Would he have been a better choice to try to close out Sacto ? Given 20/20 hindsight it kinda looks that way.. but if we get even 12 points on offense and get a couple of stops and hold Sacto to a very do-able 18 pts in 7 minutes Raps win and this conversation doesn't happen.

I get it.. Caseys' not your guy.. not your choice... just keep an open mind and be less dogmatic in the mantra that whatever the problem is .. Casey is the reason for it.

Even if all that is considered, he's still MILES MILES better than Biyombo. That is the point. That is why Casey is such an idiot.

[CB4Champ]

He plays 28 Mins per game .. 11 games in....
For compares here is what other C's are getting... other than Drummond.. he seems to play as much as everyone else.
Horford plays 31
P.Gasol plays 30
Mozgov plays 21
Whiteside plays 29
Drummond plays 37
D Jordan plays 31
M.Gasol plays 32
Towns plays 29
Okafor plays 33
Gortat plays 27
Vucevic plays 31
Duncan plays 27
Howard plays 31

Looks like he is about 2 minutes short of average..
2 minutes .... Do you think its reasonable to expect that he would change the course of every game with 2 more minutes ? You seem convinced it would be. I just remain a little more skeptical than you on the impact two more minutes of floor time would have.

The thing about your list demo, is that you should put all the centers that start!!! as an example:

Brook Lopez Nets 34.5 Minutes

Nerlen Noels Philli 32.5 Minutes


Greg Monroe Detroit 34 Minutes


Rudy Gobert Utah 34 minutes








Add those Centers to the list of Centers that You posted! and you have 12 Twelve centers that avg 30+ minutes...Why is Val an 22-23 year old one of the best Percent centers repping Less then These guys as Good as they are...Val is a Prodigy! we have 2 Prodigy's and 2 Hard workers that make themselves top 5 Reppers for there positions from HARDWORK!!! Why is coach Casey not allowing this team as Deep as GoldenState Warriors!!! not allowing to Use all there Teammates..WHY RUN ISO, ON A TEAM AS DEEP AND HEAVY AS THIS???

Had to edit the post because some of the Reppers were already stated from demo..

Credit S.R. for doing dat dere

[SkywalkerAC]

At least we're not the Rockets?

[S.R.]

He plays 28 Mins per game .. 11 games in....
For compares here is what other C's are getting... other than Drummond.. he seems to play as much as everyone else.
Horford plays 31
P.Gasol plays 30
Mozgov plays 21
Whiteside plays 29
Drummond plays 37
D Jordan plays 31
M.Gasol plays 32
Towns plays 29
Okafor plays 33
Gortat plays 27
Vucevic plays 31
Duncan plays 27
Howard plays 31

Looks like he is about 2 minutes short of average..
2 minutes .... Do you think its reasonable to expect that he would change the course of every game with 2 more minutes ? You seem convinced it would be. I just remain a little more skeptical than you on the impact two more minutes of floor time would have.

Quite a few of those guys have a legit PF/C teammate who shares their minutes. Duncan is playing with LMA, Marc Gasol is playing with Z-Bo, Gortat is playing with Nene, Jordan is playing with Griffin, Okafor is playing with Noel, etc. JV is playing with...Biyombo and Scola. Biyombo is a career bench player and Scola had lost his starting spot before coming here to a team with no starting PF. JV is better than both those guys by quite a bit on most metrics - pick your stat. JV has been MILES better than Biyombo in 4th quarters, and it's not even close (https://twitter.com/JLew1050/status/666131966689976320).

Also, a number of those C's see reduced minutes because they can't shoot FT's and have to sit late in tight games. JV currently has the 4th highest FG% in the entire NBA and the three guys ahead of him - Jordan, Howard, and Whiteside - can't shoot free throws. Jonas shoots FT's at a .778% clip. He's a centre you can close games with.

From Ryan Wolstat:
"With Biyombo on, Sacramento was able to play 5-on-4 defensively against what had been a torrid Toronto offence. The shots became tougher to make, the three-pointers more contested and to top it off, Biyombo, in for his defence, got obliterated by Cousins repeatedly.
Part of it was Cousins is really good, part of it was the referees letting Cousins do whatever he wanted and part of it probably was Biyombo simply playing too many minutes. He’s a guy who has always played limited minutes, largely because of foul trouble, but he was out there for a long stretch. Against a 270-pound wrecking ball like Cousins, those minutes start to feel even longer.

As colleague Eric Koreen pointed out, Toronto’s defensive rating with Biyombo on the floor is actually a lot worse (103.8 points allowed per 100 possessions) compared to when Valanciunas is on the floor (96.6)." http://blogs.canoe.com/courtside/bas...udy-gay-trade/

[mcHAPPY]

Even if all that is considered, he's still MILES MILES better than Biyombo. That is the point. That is why Casey is such an idiot.

Yeah, seems to be a case of missing the forest through the trees.

Also:

Through 11 games, Biyombo has played 21 MORE 4th-quarter minutes than JV and 3rd-most on the team. Bis: -20 in 72 mins, JV: +34 in 51 mins

— Josh Lewenberg (@JLew1050) November 16, 2015

JV 4th Q mins this year: 5.5, 6.5, 7.5, 9, 5.5, 6, 3, 6.5, 0, 1.5, 0 - Average: 4.5 (7th on the team/roughly 1 more minute than last year)

— Josh Lewenberg (@JLew1050) November 16, 2015

[Axel]

get that reality out of here

Not really reality. Going against the stream yes, but that doesn't make any of his points correct. Reality is, playing any player, especially a back up player, for 18 consecutive minutes is a poor decision.

Would you consider that maybe our boy isn't as good or polished enough to play more minutes than he is...
His ability to catch the ball in traffic still needs to get better... his offensive game while improving year to year is still not good enough to have the offense run through him ... his court vision in the passing game is still developing.
Would he have been a better choice to try to close out Sacto ? Given 20/20 hindsight it kinda looks that way.. but if we get even 12 points on offense and get a couple of stops and hold Sacto to a very do-able 18 pts in 7 minutes Raps win and this conversation doesn't happen.

I get it.. Caseys' not your guy.. not your choice... just keep an open mind and be less dogmatic in the mantra that whatever the problem is .. Casey is the reason for it.

This hindsight line is a complete cop out. If Casey had announced this plan before the game or at half-time, it would have been immediately met with disagreement for specific reasons:

- Biyombo's lack of offence makes the defence focus more on his teammates
- Biyombo's defensive production isn't better than JV's enough to off-set the lost offence
- JV is the future of this team and needs to play in these situations

All of these items have been discussed here on the forum BEFORE the game. All hindsight has provided us in this case is the final score, but the result was very predictable. A capable coach should have been able to predict this because many fans would have predicted it.

If you want to defend Casey, that is fully within your rights, but don't insult our intelligence by pretending that what Casey did wrong was only obvious with hindsight.

If we take everything you have said to be true, then it still at least demonstrates that Casey has poor judgement, because it was clearly the wrong call.

There are enough reasons for a team to lose a basketball game that we don't need to add "coach stupidity" working against us.