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Kyle Lowry is awesome and the conversation around this team has officially gone crazy.

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  • Kyle Lowry is awesome and the conversation around this team has officially gone crazy.

    So I was reading some other threads and I cam across someone suggesting that Cory Joseph is a better player than Lowry and that we need to move Lowry to become a good team. I've seen this brought up a couple times now and it's started to bother me so here we go.

    Kyle Lowry, by every metric we have, is a top ten player in the league. Other than Steph Curry (maybe Westbrook) I can't think of anyone who is better at the point guard spot. Some Stats for this season:

    Win shares: 3rd
    Steal %: 1st
    Boxscore +-: 4th
    VORP: 3rd
    Assists: 7th

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...6_leaders.html

    These are not just good player stats, or all star stats, these are franchise player numbers. And the best part? he's signed long term to a contract that is going to look like the bargain of the century when the new cap hits. He's got his issues (shoots a low percentage, fouls a lot) but no player is perfect and we are damn lucky to have him.

    I get that everyone likes Joseph: he's an extremely effective player and given the issues this team has with throwing up bad shots, his ability to pick his spots is a breath of fresh air. He's great and has been the most welcome surprise of this season since a lot of people thought he might just be here because he's Canadian. But right now, this season, he is not on the same level as Lowry. He might get there eventually, and I love that we have him here, but to suggest he should start over Lowry is silly.
    "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

    -Churchill

  • #2
    Lowry is great it's DeMar that has to go

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    • #3
      I'm not sure I've seen anyone say that Joseph is better than Lowry, though not I'm not saying it wasn't said.

      The argument I've seen around trading Lowry and starting Joseph, is that Joseph is ready to start (I don't think you'll find anyone who will argue this point), and in order to do so, we need to move our better starting PG.
      The return that we could get for Lowry, who is locked into a ridiculously team friendly deal, would help fill holes at other positions, while giving Joseph the opportunity to Start; which I think would actually be a good move.

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      • #4
        charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
        Lowry is great it's DeMar that has to go
        Can we not turn this into another Demar thread, please. Lol

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        • #5
          Joey wrote: View Post
          I'm not sure I've seen anyone say that Joseph is better than Lowry, though not I'm not saying it wasn't said.

          The argument I've seen around trading Lowry and starting Joseph, is that Joseph is ready to start (I don't think you'll find anyone who will argue this point), and in order to do so, we need to move our better starting PG.
          The return that we could get for Lowry, who is locked into a ridiculously team friendly deal, would help fill holes at other positions, while giving Joseph the opportunity to Start; which I think would actually be a good move.
          That's a fair argument but I'd counter with: you don't trade good players on better contracts. The Joseph problem is a good one to have, and given Casey's desire to play 2 point guards for long stretches, I think he fits well here. Teams that win titles have very good players, players that would start on 80% of the teams in the league, coming off the bench (see Iguodala)

          This team is not ready to win a title as constructed and something needs to change considerably if we are ever going to get there, but trading one of the best players in the league is not the answer. Lowry is not Chris Bosh, this is not a situation where building around him is a bad idea because he's not a top level guy. He is the player we have been waiting for, that we would potentially try to tank for, and it is up to Masai to find that second and third piece that can take us to a title. I'm hopeful that JV might be one of those guys (he's only in his 4th season and, as BC always used to say, centres take 5 years ) and that with some savy off season moves we are just a player way from competing for real.
          "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

          -Churchill

          Comment


          • #6
            hateslosing wrote: View Post
            That's a fair argument but I'd counter with: you don't trade good players on better contracts. The Joseph problem is a good one to have, and given Casey's desire to play 2 point guards for long stretches, I think he fits well here. Teams that win titles have very good players, players that would start on 80% of the teams in the league, coming off the bench (see Iguodala)

            This team is not ready to win a title as constructed and something needs to change considerably if we are ever going to get there, but trading one of the best players in the league is not the answer. Lowry is not Chris Bosh, this is not a situation where building around him is a bad idea because he's not a top level guy. He is the player we have been waiting for, that we would potentially try to tank for, and it is up to Masai to find that second and third piece that can take us to a title. I'm hopeful that JV might be one of those guys (he's only in his 4th season and, as BC always used to say, centres take 5 years ) and that with some savy off season moves we are just a player way from competing for real.
            Whoa, we had lots of debate about whether or not Bosh was a franchise guy, but in hindsight his supporting cast was terrible. Put Lowry on those Bosh teams and I don't think they'd be any better. By 29 years old, Chris Bosh had 8 All-Star appearances and two NBA titles. He's a good player.

            Lowry hasn't proven any amount of sustainability yet. He performed about half a season at a high level last year. Just can't peg him as "the guy you can build around" yet. He's also the oldest guy in the core - he'll be good for the next couple of seasons, but he'll be gone by the time some of the other pieces here are hitting their peaks.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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            • #7
              S.R. wrote: View Post
              Whoa, we had lots of debate about whether or not Bosh was a franchise guy, but in hindsight his supporting cast was terrible. Put Lowry on those Bosh teams and I don't think they'd be any better. By 29 years old, Chris Bosh had 8 All-Star appearances and two NBA titles. He's a good player.

              Lowry hasn't proven any amount of sustainability yet. He performed about half a season at a high level last year. Just can't peg him as "the guy you can build around" yet. He's also the oldest guy in the core - he'll be good for the next couple of seasons, but he'll be gone by the time some of the other pieces here are hitting their peaks.
              By then he'll be the backup then hopefully. He's the best PG and SG on the team. He may have developed later but Lowry is an impact player now.

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              • #8
                S.R. wrote: View Post
                Whoa, we had lots of debate about whether or not Bosh was a franchise guy, but in hindsight his supporting cast was terrible. Put Lowry on those Bosh teams and I don't think they'd be any better. By 29 years old, Chris Bosh had 8 All-Star appearances and two NBA titles. He's a good player.

                Lowry hasn't proven any amount of sustainability yet. He performed about half a season at a high level last year. Just can't peg him as "the guy you can build around" yet. He's also the oldest guy in the core - he'll be good for the next couple of seasons, but he'll be gone by the time some of the other pieces here are hitting their peaks.
                I think you touched on my biggest argument for moving Lowry. He is a great player, but at his age, we need to compete now. I don't think are core is good enough now to make a run, and I don't think our current talent level warrants trading prospects and picks for better role players to compliment our core. Unless we get an amazing free agent in Horford or KD, I just don't see our team being a real playoff heavy weight during Lowry's peak. Thus, I think trading for younger pieces to compliment Cojo and JV, both in age and skills, makes more sense than staying on this treadmill for a few more years.

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                • #9
                  Lowry is clearing the best player on this team
                  "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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                  • #10
                    S.R. wrote: View Post
                    Whoa, we had lots of debate about whether or not Bosh was a franchise guy, but in hindsight his supporting cast was terrible. Put Lowry on those Bosh teams and I don't think they'd be any better. By 29 years old, Chris Bosh had 8 All-Star appearances and two NBA titles. He's a good player.

                    Lowry hasn't proven any amount of sustainability yet. He performed about half a season at a high level last year. Just can't peg him as "the guy you can build around" yet. He's also the oldest guy in the core - he'll be good for the next couple of seasons, but he'll be gone by the time some of the other pieces here are hitting their peaks.
                    A healthy Lowry definitely would've helped those teams out. Bosh drawing all the attention helped guys like Graham, Ford, TJ, and Moon produce like serviceable NBA players.

                    Having said this OP, Lowry would serve better in this complimentary role than being option 1A/1B with DeRozan. I love those stats, but he's a second option at best on any competitive team.

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                    • #11
                      I'd like to see Cory start along side Lowry if anything.

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                      • #12
                        I don't want to trade Lowry and I think he's criminally undervalued by a lot of posters on here. Top 30 player in the league 2 years in a row, no one else on the team even comes fucking close to that, at all. The fact he's on a great contract makes keeping him even more of a no brainer. I love me some CoJo, but as the 6th man getting his starter minutes backing up Kyle and playing with him. After JV, Lowry is the next most untouchable in my opinion. Plenty of other guys to move instead if need be.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Joey wrote: View Post
                          The argument I've seen around trading Lowry and starting Joseph, is that Joseph is ready to start (I don't think you'll find anyone who will argue this point), and in order to do so, we need to move our better starting PG.
                          The return that we could get for Lowry, who is locked into a ridiculously team friendly deal, would help fill holes at other positions, while giving Joseph the opportunity to Start; which I think would actually be a good move.
                          I think people are vastly underestimating just how vital Lowry is to our team, and vastly overestimating how ready Joseph is to fill his shoes (if we are attempting to compete now, and not rebuild).

                          When Lowry is on the court, our net rating is +7.7. When he's off it's -8.7. Our team is at its worst by far when he's off the court. Those same numbers for Joseph are +5.7 and +1.2.

                          Lowry has attempted 94 three pointers at a 41.5% clip. Joseph has attempted 14 three pointers in the same number of games at a 30.8% clip. Do you really want to pair Joseph and Derozan in the backcourt with their lack of three point shooting? You are basically begging for teams to sag off and clog the lane.

                          S.R. wrote:
                          He's also the oldest guy in the core - he'll be good for the next couple of seasons, but he'll be gone by the time some of the other pieces here are hitting their peaks.
                          DogeLover1234 wrote:
                          He is a great player, but at his age, we need to compete now.
                          There are many, many late blooming point guards who peaked late and maintained their peaks well into their 30s. These point guards have typically been smarter BBIQ players whose skills did not revolve around athleticism. The closest comparable to Lowry (and the guy who gave Lowry his pep talk/mentoring) would be Chauncey Billups. Billups made his first all-star team at the age of 29, though you'd probably consider his breakout around the age of 27.

                          If the coaches had picked the right guy instead of DeMar, Lowry would have been our all-star at age 27 two years ago, and this would be his third straight appearance--so I'm not sure I agree with the half a season of good play either. He was battling injuries the back end of last year which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth, but he's been our best player for two solid years going back to the Rudy trade in early December 2013.

                          Anyways, Billups played at a very high level till roughly the age of 34-35. Same goes for Jason Kidd (all-star at age 36) and Steve Nash (all-star from ages 27-37). Now I'm not saying Lowry belongs in the same group as these legends, only that there's a decent chance that he can maintain his peak long enough for us to compete.

                          And there's another part of the Billups comparison which I think is important: leadership. Kyle Lowry is a leader. He's fiery, competitive, and leads both vocally and by example. I've cited it before but Terrence Ross repeatedly stressed this in his AMA on reddit.

                          DeMarre Carroll might help fill the leadership vacuum, but it's often important to have your best player be your leader, not a role player. I think if you move Lowry, the loss of intangibles is probably the biggest problem, even if we get a decent return to fill other holes.

                          DogeLover1234 wrote:
                          Thus, I think trading for younger pieces to compliment Cojo and JV, both in age and skills, makes more sense than staying on this treadmill for a few more years.
                          Now this I can agree with: if you trade Lowry, you gut the rest of the team, including DeRozan, and don't bring back other pieces to fill the holes. But if we were to do this, Masai should be fired, because this tacit acknowledgment that the core is flawed was an assessment reached by many, many people from the day he took over. Which is probably why it won't happen.

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                          • #14
                            Yeah I'm not willing to trade Lowry. He is our best player. We need a player who can create his own shot and score 20 points a game consistently. JV will be the second option who can average 18-23 points per game if given the opportunity imo. Just fire Casey and trade DD to move up in the draft or for other players and I'm sure this team will become much better.

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                            • #15
                              Primer wrote: View Post
                              I don't want to trade Lowry and I think he's criminally undervalued by a lot of posters on here. Top 30 player in the league 2 years in a row, no one else on the team even comes fucking close to that, at all. The fact he's on a great contract makes keeping him even more of a no brainer. I love me some CoJo, but as the 6th man getting his starter minutes backing up Kyle and playing with him. After JV, Lowry is the next most untouchable in my opinion. Plenty of other guys to move instead if need be.
                              I agree that he is the clear best player on the team. This means that if we want to do any sort of rebuild with high draft picks, we need to turn him into young prospects. I also don't see him fitting into a rebuild because of his age. Unless we can sign player at least as good as Lowry in free agency, so KD or Horford, I think we should rebuild with draft picks and young players. My trade of choice would be a trade with Utah, for Exum and Lyles + filler (i might throw in JJ and try to get back a pick as well).

                              I would reconsider if we alter to feature JV with a DD trade (JV shows great promise) and Ross or Powell show promise mid season. Then I would consider going after Batum and Sully provided they continue to play well. With a new coach, and JV's role more central I could see this core working out well, but a lot has to go right.

                              If you can find a way to increase the talent level on this roster, get a new coach who works well in the next year or two Im all for it, keep Lowry. I just don't see a great enough increase in talent incoming, without giving up picks and young guys, which is a quick way to ruin our team 4 years from now.
                              Last edited by DogeLover1234; Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:53 AM.

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