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Game #31: Toronto Raptors 111 - Milwaukee Bucks 90

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  • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    Your are correct. You never said fake win. You said ""but hard to take much from one game, especially considering the opponent. Followed up by this one " So congrats to the Raptors on not crapping the bed - but again, I'm not taking anything more than that from the game". which in context hints at the notion of f*** win without uttering that now potentially banned two word phrase. I think the Slaw guy came up with f*** win as a buzzword. I think in two little words it succinctly refutes the tripe that gets written that the raps were either lucky that night or the other team didn't try that night or the other team was just crappy and not worthy of being in the NBA that night thereby rendering those particular wins worthless.

    So yeah...I am happy over each and every win this team gets especially ones on the road. Just don't share the view that some wins are somehow jaundiced or flawed or f***. They all came at a price and they all count regardless of who you beat.

    Sorry but I never did see you put up any kind of seat of the pants prediction in any of the Eastern Conference pre season predictions threads so i will take you at your word that you had Milwaukee finishing out of the playoffs and being the stumblebums they appear to be right now. Gorilla math had about 90% of the contributors forecasting the Bucks being in the playoffs between 4 and 6 including me who will eat crow on that one and a couple others.
    Bucks are why you play games. Losing Zaza and Ilysova hurt more than I thought but its also because more team play pace and space killing teamslike the Sixer, Bucks and Last years Raptors blitz defense whch gives up threes. Its no coincidence that the best assists game for the Raptors was against the Bucks.

    They are fake wins, the commisioner has stepped in against the Sixers and the Lakers tank is blatant. 8 wins have come against Sixers, Laker, Bucks and Pels, Raptors are 11-12 versus team other than them, including losses to Knicks, Nuggets, Suns

    Comment


    • why are losses more telling than wins? that is my issue with this boondoggle. the idea that when we win casey, demar, jv did nothing well because the other team wasn't trying hard etc. or when they lose it is directly related to those people and their decisions is dumb. anyone who doesn't see a double standard in that is being purposely obtuse.

      criticism and praise are both deserving of the team this year, like every year. just seems like we have trenches drawn now and much less middle ground. any thread starting "demar played well today" is dead, that is getting slaughtered. same as "demar loses another game".

      Comment


      • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
        Just don't share the view that some wins are somehow jaundiced or flawed or f***. They all came at a price and they all count regardless of who you beat.
        They all count in the standings equally but if you really believe that narrowly defeating the Sixers is the same as narrowly defeating the Thunder, then there isn't much to discuss.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          They all count in the standings equally but if you really believe that narrowly defeating the Sixers is the same as narrowly defeating the Thunder, then there isn't much to discuss.
          Axe my friend the discussion is always on. I have enjoyed reading the forums for the past couple years and hope to be entertained by it for a few more but recently the flow of discussion has become similar to reading a Toronto Star editorial where the discussion only goes one way.... and if the other way provides equal time then the backs go up if the prevailing "known truth cuz we said so" is even remotely challenged.

          Poster Miekenstien puts forward very nicely in his post above why the term psuedo victory has legs " the idea that when we win casey, demar, jv did nothing well because the other team wasn't trying hard etc. or when they lose it is directly related to those people and their decisions is a double standard"

          Sometimes the emperor doesn't have any clothes.
          And with the 4th overall pick the Toronto Raptors select..... Scottie Barnes.

          Comment


          • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
            Your are correct. You never said fake win. You said ""but hard to take much from one game, especially considering the opponent. Followed up by this one " So congrats to the Raptors on not crapping the bed - but again, I'm not taking anything more than that from the game". which in context hints at the notion of f*** win without uttering that now potentially banned two word phrase. I think the Slaw guy came up with f*** win as a buzzword. I think in two little words it succinctly refutes the tripe that gets written that the raps were either lucky that night or the other team didn't try that night or the other team was just crappy and not worthy of being in the NBA that night thereby rendering those particular wins worthless.

            So yeah...I am happy over each and every win this team gets especially ones on the road. Just don't share the view that some wins are somehow jaundiced or flawed or f***. They all came at a price and they all count regardless of who you beat.

            Sorry but I never did see you put up any kind of seat of the pants prediction in any of the Eastern Conference pre season predictions threads so i will take you at your word that you had Milwaukee finishing out of the playoffs and being the stumblebums they appear to be right now. Gorilla math had about 90% of the contributors forecasting the Bucks being in the playoffs between 4 and 6 including me who will eat crow on that one and a couple others.
            I never said the win was jaundiced or flawed or fake in any way.

            I simply said we can't take anything else out of it. Some losses are still losses even though you can take positives from them. Some wins are still wins even though you can't, really.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
              Axe my friend the discussion is always on. I have enjoyed reading the forums for the past couple years and hope to be entertained by it for a few more but recently the flow of discussion has become similar to reading a Toronto Star editorial where the discussion only goes one way.... and if the other way provides equal time then the backs go up if the prevailing "known truth cuz we said so" is even remotely challenged.

              Poster Miekenstien puts forward very nicely in his post above why the term psuedo victory has legs " the idea that when we win casey, demar, jv did nothing well because the other team wasn't trying hard etc. or when they lose it is directly related to those people and their decisions is a double standard"

              Sometimes the emperor doesn't have any clothes.
              Miek's post above isn't necessarily true though. I really believe that some posters believe it to be true and go out of their way to make it seem so, but I don't see it that way.

              When the team plays well and wins, people do still give props to DD, JV, KL, as they deserve.

              When they win and play mediocre, people call them out for it. Is that not fair? Playing poorly or average and winning is not as satisfying as playing well or great and winning, so why must we be forced to accept all wins as equal?

              As for Casey, does the coach really deserve much credit when the more talented team wins, especially when there were no game specific adjustments or tactics employed (that we see)? Having the team show up and beat teams they should beat isn't praise worthy for the coach, it's the minimum acceptable standard. If you can demonstrate in some way that Casey "out-coached" the opposing team, then great, let's see it. But simply saying "well we won" doesn't carry much weight for me since the talent level of teams is not the same and each night has context that matters. And guys trolling anyone who holds the coach/team to a higher standard with stupid posts with nothing but #FakeWin (like the WildLing post quoted earlier) aren't contributing anything except trying to get an annoyed response. So they shouldn't be allowed to bait/troll in that manner.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • Axel wrote: View Post
                As for Casey, does the coach really deserve much credit when the more talented team wins, especially when there were no game specific adjustments or tactics employed (that we see)? .
                "A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest." - Paul Simon

                I'm not a Casey fan, I thinks he's an averagish NBA coach. But I know he's not the inflexible idiot he's made out to be by more than a few here. There are a lot of posters here who hate him, very few of those can see (or say) ANYTHING positive about him.

                Blake and Zarar of RR give pretty good post-game analysis. I know Zarar is not a Casey fan whatsoever, but even he gives credit to Casey when he makes a smart in-game adjustment. On the forum, that same adjustment is rarely if ever mentioned by his detractors, or a bs comment like "he had no choice" is as close to an acknowledgement as it gets.
                If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                Comment


                • Game #31: Toronto Raptors (18-12) @ Milwaukee Bucks (12-18) - Dec. 26 @ 5 PM ...

                  3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                  I know Zarar is not a Casey fan whatsoever, but even he gives credit to Casey when he makes a smart in-game adjustment. On the forum, that same adjustment is rarely if ever mentioned by his detractors, or a bs comment like "he had no choice" is as close to an acknowledgement as it gets.
                  Yet the pro-Casey posts are usually limited to "we won". Rarely do we see much meat to the pro-Casey posts. Which is why, perhaps, there are more in the anti-Casey side of the fence.

                  I see a below average coach. Not the worst (Byron Scott probably has that title) but not someone who makes the team better. Even his good days seem to be more of a net neutral than much of a positive.
                  Last edited by Axel; Mon Dec 28, 2015, 02:30 PM.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                  Comment


                  • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                    "A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest." - Paul Simon

                    I'm not a Casey fan, I thinks he's an averagish NBA coach. But I know he's not the inflexible idiot he's made out to be by more than a few here. There are a lot of posters here who hate him, very few of those can see (or say) ANYTHING positive about him.

                    Blake and Zarar of RR give pretty good post-game analysis. I know Zarar is not a Casey fan whatsoever, but even he gives credit to Casey when he makes a smart in-game adjustment. On the forum, that same adjustment is rarely if ever mentioned by his detractors, or a bs comment like "he had no choice" is as close to an acknowledgement as it gets.
                    Like when?

                    Seriously asking. Not baiting.

                    Brought this same question up on a different thread a few days ago, never got a reply.
                    Last edited by JimiCliff; Mon Dec 28, 2015, 02:40 PM.
                    "Stop eating your sushi."
                    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                    - Jack Armstrong

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                    • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                      Like when?

                      Seriously asking. Not baiting.

                      Brought this same question up on a different thread a few days ago, never got a reply.
                      Dallas game last week:

                      Dwane Casey B+
                      Scola on Nowitzki paid off. Who would’ve thunk it? Handled the Dallas zone well but running good screens up top and getting right into the paint. Made Dallas pay for the zone by hitting and dominating the glass, which was key. Called up Bennett at the right moment and got production out of him. That small Dallas lineup at the end completely surprised Casey who had no answer for them. Probably would’ve gone small and mobile if he had Johnson or Patterson available, but stuck with Scola out there and almost got burned
                      .

                      Miami game 2 weeks ago:

                      Dwane Casey A
                      Great timeout at the beginning of the third to kickstart the comeback. Excellent call on starting Johnson against Deng. Both key moves that got us the win – offense looked great, defense stepped up with some deflections in the fourth.
                      If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                      Comment


                      • Axel wrote: View Post
                        Yet the pro-Casey posts are usually limited to "we won". Rarely do we see much meat to the pro-Casey posts. Which is why, perhaps, there are more in the anti-Casey side of the fence.

                        I see a below average coach. Not the worst (Byron Scott probably has that title) but not someone who makes the team better. Even his good days seem to be more of a net neutral than much of a positive.
                        I'm a big fan of objectivity,(which is why I love to read stuff by writers like Zach Lowe). And your right, Axel. The Casey camp lacks objectivity at times also.

                        Simply using W-L as a judge of a coaches capabilities is very simplistic.
                        If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                        Comment


                        • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                          Dallas game last week:

                          .

                          Miami game 2 weeks ago:
                          I missed the Dallas game but here is my post game comments on Miami.

                          Axel wrote: View Post
                          Really nice to see the effort tonight. Team played hard for really the full 48 minutes.

                          JJ played really well. He's a guy who can work off the starters and played well on both ends most of the night. Only remember the one mental lapse.

                          The Biyombo affect on offence was evident tonight as the Heat kept double teaming the ball on PnR. Really hard to find a role on offence for a guy who can't catch or finish around the rim and who's screens are a detriment. Would have thought Whiteside would have been a good matchup for Bebe to get in. Bebe is good enough offensively to force Whiteside to defend his man more. Whiteside finished with 5 blocks (same as the entire Raps roster). Giving him more responsibility defensively could have opened up some space around the rim.

                          We seem to be hedging a bit more on PnR. Don't like it. We gave up at least 2 wide open threes when we hedged plus the last thing we want is for Casey to start using it (and JV) as a matchup thing.

                          Minutes still a concern. 40&38 for DD and KL. only 20 for CoJo and a 8 man rotation.

                          Overall though, good team effort and win.
                          Pretty objective I think, yet some pretend that all we write is "Casey is an idiot".
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                          Comment


                          • Axel wrote: View Post
                            Yet the pro-Casey posts are usually limited to "we won". Rarely do we see much meat to the pro-Casey posts. Which is why, perhaps, there are more in the anti-Casey side of the fence.

                            I see a below average coach. Not the worst (Byron Scott probably has that title) but not someone who makes the team better. Even his good days seem to be more of a net neutral than much of a positive.
                            This is one of the reasons the discussion is lopsided (as well as the # of posters on one side vs. on the other). When the arguments "for Casey" (I hate the partisanship over that oversimplification) are reduced to just mocking the other side, it doesn't add anything (and vice versa). There is a lot of meat and interesting discussion re: coaching and strategy around here, it doesn't all get rehashed every post-game.

                            Personally I think the coaching staff has to get some of the credit for some of the adjustments made since last year, and have said so a few times. For me though, the jury's still out until the end of the playoff run. If this team can play better/smarter than last year and have a solid second round appearance, then you have to reconsider some "anti-Casey" opinions. If there are a few bright spot games, another 45-50 win season, and another first round exit, then this team is definitely treadmilling and the coach absolutely should not be back next season.

                            In the meantime, the oversimplified back-and-forth is maybe the result of lack of new content to analyze/discuss?
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              I missed the Dallas game but here is my post game comments on Miami.



                              Pretty objective I think, yet some pretend that all we write is "Casey is an idiot".
                              OK, you were objective in what you posted,

                              But not one word of praise for Casey there, just concerns. And yeah, I don't see YOU calling him an idiot (or synonyms thereof), but there are others who do.
                              If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                              Comment


                              • S.R. wrote: View Post
                                This is one of the reasons the discussion is lopsided (as well as the # of posters on one side vs. on the other). When the arguments "for Casey" (I hate the partisanship over that oversimplification) are reduced to just mocking the other side, it doesn't add anything (and vice versa). There is a lot of meat and interesting discussion re: coaching and strategy around here, it doesn't all get rehashed every post-game.

                                Personally I think the coaching staff has to get some of the credit for some of the adjustments made since last year, and have said so a few times. For me though, the jury's still out until the end of the playoff run. If this team can play better/smarter than last year and have a solid second round appearance, then you have to reconsider some "anti-Casey" opinions. If there are a few bright spot games, another 45-50 win season, and another first round exit, then this team is definitely treadmilling and the coach absolutely should not be back next season.

                                In the meantime, the oversimplified back-and-forth is maybe the result of lack of new content to analyze/discuss?
                                This is probably the most reasonable view I've read so far on the coaching situation. With a Horford like addition I think, properly coached we could beat the Cavs or give them a run for their money, they don't look as unstoppable as teams like the Spurs and Warriors out west. You limit LBJ you beat them.

                                Like you said it's going to come down to playoffs. Need to see some progression there or Casey's gotta go, especially given that the roster has been upgraded and the top players on the team are playing at levels they haven't previously. Gotta show something on the floor.

                                Honestly a really high-end coach would be able to get this roster to the conference final.

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