Is PF the weakest position in the NBA right now?

[thead]

I was doing my usual morning routine of searching out players the Raptors could trade for and I realized that PF might be the weakest position going.

There are no truly dominant two way PFs. In fact many teams struggling to fill that position simply stick in a stretch 4 in there or play small ball.

There are many skilled PFs, even All Stars. But even the best ones are lacking in one area or are not clearly a PF.

Some dominate offensively Griffin/Aldridge/Cousins/Nowitzki (fading)

Some bring a great deal of versatility. Millsap/Young/D. Green, but lack in size.

The Duncan and Garnett era is in it's twilight...

maybe the solution is to just stick the biggest best three we can find in at 4 and call it a day

[OldSkoolCool]

Between Aldridge, Millsap, Green and Davis I think there the position is overall stronger than Center.

[JawsGT]

If DD or JJ could hit a 3, JJ would look great at PF IMO. But alas, it's tough to survive in todays NBA without at least 3 3pt shooters on the floor. Scola has been doing a pretty damn good job of spacing the floor lately though, which has really helped the starting unit function well. There has been alot of discussion of these forums about the 4 spot, upgrading it, moving Patterson in to start etc. Personally, I think we are fine right now for the season. At the end of the day, this team will go the way of Lowry, and if he is playing well, then our ceiling is limited by the effectiveness of Patterson and Ross IMO. If those two guys are playing well though, then we have a really well rounded team that will be tough to be beat on most nights. Now don't get me wrong, we absolutely need JV and Carroll back, and healthy and playing well, and Demar needs to keep the efficiency up, and Cojo needs to keep bangin, and Biz needs to protect the paint, but I think a consistent and effective Patterson and Ross, whether off the bench or starting, can make this team so difficult to guard.

Given the inconsistencies we have seen from these guys, and the stress it has put on the remaining players, I think it's obvious that we depend on these guys to knock down shots effectively and consistently.

And like you said thead, there isn't alot out there to get. Ultimately, I'm not sure there is a single available PF that would clearly make us a contender, so I'm fine with waiting until the offseason to make roster changes. I'd be fine with a Ryan Anderson acquisition, but after reading some of the discussion I'm not sure I like what would be expected to be given up in order to acquire him. Same thing with the Bulls scenarios. I don't think moving one of our few 3pt shooters in Ross to acquire a guy like Gibson, for example, would be a could idea. Plus, I'm not sure Gibson could give us anymore that what Scola has been giving us anyways. Mirotic, different story, cause he can stretch the floor better and is young with upside, but I don't see the Bulls giving him up. And if he is available, he's likely to be costly.

So I agree, not alot out there that's really appealing.

[S.R.]

PF minutes are also being eaten by SF's (a strong position) and by shifting a lot of guys who, 10 years ago would have definitely been PF's, over to C (Greg Monroe goes to Milwaukee and becomes a C because there's no Drummond on the roster). A bunch of guys currently playing C on their teams could play PF next to Jonas.

Sidenote: a lot of great up and coming young players are bigs. I think both guard positions are going to weaken in a few years and PF/C will be really strong. Random example: top 25 NBA players 25 and under (http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/1...aliers-wizards) list has 8 guards and 17 forwards. Will be interesting to see how this impacts the "it's a guard's league" trend.

[3inthekeon]

Scola has been doing a pretty damn good job of spacing the floor lately though, which has really helped the starting unit function well.

Jaws, I pretty well agree with everything else you said except this part. I'm not sure he does space the floor, i.e. drawing defenders out of the paint. He's hitting 3's at a very decent clip, but most seem to me to be wide open looks, because the D gives him those rather than open the paint.

Here's an analysis on Marvin Williams which kind of explains what I'm trying to say

About to enter his 30s, Williams has evolved into a completely different player than he was projected coming into the NBA out of North Carolina. He's now a Matt Bonner-type role player who camps out beyond the 3-point line and tries to stretch the defense. With no playmaking ability, Williams isn't nearly as skilled on the perimeter as his Charlotte predecessor Josh McRoberts, but Williams is a sniper from the corners, where he made 47 percent of his attempts.


Here's the issue: No one respected him out there. According to SportVU player-tracking data provided to ESPN Insider, Williams' gravity score was well below-average for his position even though that was his primary job -- to keep the defense honest. For reference, his stretch indicators were nowhere near the respect ratings of the Ryan Andersons and Channing Fryes of the NBA.

[golden]

If DD or JJ could hit a 3, JJ would look great at PF IMO. But alas, it's tough to survive in todays NBA without at least 3 3pt shooters on the floor. Scola has been doing a pretty damn good job of spacing the floor lately though, which has really helped the starting unit function well. There has been alot of discussion of these forums about the 4 spot, upgrading it, moving Patterson in to start etc. Personally, I think we are fine right now for the season. At the end of the day, this team will go the way of Lowry, and if he is playing well, then our ceiling is limited by the effectiveness of Patterson and Ross IMO. If those two guys are playing well though, then we have a really well rounded team that will be tough to be beat on most nights. Now don't get me wrong, we absolutely need JV and Carroll back, and healthy and playing well, and Demar needs to keep the efficiency up, and Cojo needs to keep bangin, and Biz needs to protect the paint, but I think a consistent and effective Patterson and Ross, whether off the bench or starting, can make this team so difficult to guard.

Given the inconsistencies we have seen from these guys, and the stress it has put on the remaining players, I think it's obvious that we depend on these guys to knock down shots effectively and consistently.

And like you said thead, there isn't alot out there to get. Ultimately, I'm not sure there is a single available PF that would clearly make us a contender, so I'm fine with waiting until the offseason to make roster changes. I'd be fine with a Ryan Anderson acquisition, but after reading some of the discussion I'm not sure I like what would be expected to be given up in order to acquire him. Same thing with the Bulls scenarios. I don't think moving one of our few 3pt shooters in Ross to acquire a guy like Gibson, for example, would be a could idea. Plus, I'm not sure Gibson could give us anymore that what Scola has been giving us anyways. Mirotic, different story, cause he can stretch the floor better and is young with upside, but I don't see the Bulls giving him up. And if he is available, he's likely to be costly.

So I agree, not alot out there that's really appealing.

I'd re-phrase that a bit. I think our ceiling is limited by the willingness of Lowry and Derozan to share the ball early in the clock, and especially making an concerted effort to get shooters (like Ross and Patterson) in rhythm as primary options, as opposed to hunting for their own offense and getting fouled as first and second options.

Also along those lines of breaking through our ceiling to another level: developing JV as a competent passer out of the post since he attracts a double team and scores with high efficiency. Don't see that happening this year, though.

[Barolt]

It feels like there's been a natural transition that's happened. Smaller guys are being shifted to play the 4 so that you can have a 3-point shooter in that position. In reaction, a lot of young big guys are starting to shoot the 3. What'll happen in time is that you won't need to slot a SF into the PF position, because why would you want a 6'8" 3 point shooter there if you can have a 6'10" or taller one in the same spot?

[octothorp]

I was doing my usual morning routine of searching out players the Raptors could trade for and I realized that PF might be the weakest position going.

There are no truly dominant two way PFs. In fact many teams struggling to fill that position simply stick in a stretch 4 in there or play small ball.

There are many skilled PFs, even All Stars. But even the best ones are lacking in one area or are not clearly a PF.

Some dominate offensively Griffin/Aldridge/Cousins/Nowitzki (fading)

Some bring a great deal of versatility. Millsap/Young/D. Green, but lack in size.

The Duncan and Garnett era is in it's twilight...

maybe the solution is to just stick the biggest best three we can find in at 4 and call it a day

Yeah, part of that is skillsets, and part of it is the changes in the game. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that with most positions in basketball, the physical skills and traits you need to succeed offensively and defensively are much the same. But that's not the case with stretch bigs: there's pretty-much no correlation between a guy being a good stretch big, and a guy having the ability to defend the perimeter. Infact they seem to be almost mutually exclusive, because the guys who put the time into developing their jumpshot are the guys who weren't good enough to succeed on other elements in their game. This is slowly changing, you're seeing more top PF prospects who have already developed a solid jump-shot out of high-school. But it's going to be a basketball-generation before that's standard.

(And honestly, this is something I love about basketball: that there's a bunch of ideal hypothetical players who compliment one another perfectly, but almost never exist. Instead, what you get is a bunch of guys who are great at some things but weak at others. So it becomes a game of weaknesses, more than any other sport: hiding your own and exposing your opponent's.)

[rightsideup]

Between Aldridge, Millsap, Green and Davis I think there the position is overall stronger than Center.

This year Demarcus playing pf

[Halifax Raps Fan]

I'd re-phrase that a bit. I think our ceiling is limited by the willingness of Lowry and Derozan to share the ball early in the clock, and especially making an concerted effort to get shooters (like Ross and Patterson) in rhythm as primary options, as opposed to hunting for their own offense and getting fouled as first and second options.

Also along those lines of breaking through our ceiling to another level: developing JV as a competent passer out of the post since he attracts a double team and scores with high efficiency. Don't see that happening this year, though.

Ross and Patterson as primaries...why on earth would we do that?

[JWash]

This year Demarcus playing pf

Forgot Blake Griffin also.

[slaw]

Not sure about this. Davis, Cousins and Griffin are all Tier 1 elite players. I would put Love and Aldridge right up there behind those three. You're looking at least 1 or 2 Hall of Famers. Ibaka, Milsap, Green and Favours are also very good and are all solid two-way players.

I would argue the SG spot is the 'weakest' position right now in that there are really no truly elite players at the position at the moment outside of Harden. You could argue that Wade and Ginobli - who are both a thousand years old and on the downside of their respective careers - are still 2 of the top 5 SGs in the game. That's doesn't speak that highly of the position. And virtually all of the other top guys are interchangeable.

[Barolt]

The other thing to remember is that KD is 6'10". LeBron is 6'8", George is 6'9".

Karl Malone is 6'9", Charles Barkley is 6'6".

These 'smallball' PFs who are converted from SFs aren't actually small at all for power forwards.