Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Grading Masai So Far

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Jrice9 wrote: View Post
    Just to be clear, you would rather have Dennis Schroeder, Zach Lavine and Clint Capela than DeMar, JV and Ross? If so, I strongly disagree and I am glad Masai is still the GM and not you.
    What is the team's ceiling with Demar, JV, and Ross, or put more appropriately, what is this team's ceiling with Lowry/DD/Val as your 3 best players? First round knockout? That's it.

    Furthermore, Demar is incredibly overrated. Put aside our own eye test ability and what we know about him with advanced stats, check out other team's fans' opinions on Demar and you'll see a unanimous opinion: Demar is a fake star. Maxing him out is sad.

    At least with young guys like Schroeder, Lavine, Capela, etc, you still have guys on their rookie contracts with potential. Conversely, Lowry is what he is, Demar is what he is, and Val is just not that great. Val has been heavily marketed by corporate ownership since day one and is overrated by the Raps' fan base. This team is simply not going anywhere. You may as well make moves that try and move that needle. Try and increase the talent and upside.

    Comment


    • #77
      [QUOTE]
      Radojevic wrote: View Post
      What is the team's ceiling with Demar, JV, and Ross, or put more appropriately, what is this team's ceiling with Lowry/DD/Val as your 3 best players? First round knockout? That's it.
      I'm not sure this is clear at all. We lost two first round series, one of which was a 7 game series that we lost on the final possession.

      I'm also not convinced that your option is trading those guys (I don't really care about Ross as much as the other three) or not getting better. There are other options to get better that the Raptors have tried and will try (See Knicks pick and the 2016/2017 free agencies) and we will see what happens



      Furthermore, Demar is incredibly overrated. Put aside our own eye test ability and what we know about him with advanced stats, check out other team's fans' opinions on Demar and you'll see a unanimous opinion: Demar is a fake star. Maxing him out is sad.
      He's having an unbelievable season. The eye test, advanced stats confirm this. Other team's fans seem like a poor metric but I'm pretty sure alot of them have been praising him as have independant sources (See all the american national press he's gotten lately including the praise from Zach Lowe who is considered to be one of the more legitimate authorities at least imo).

      I think DeMar is clearly an object of debate but I also think your are being much too harsh and ignoring a pretty amazing run by him this season.


      Radojevic wrote: View Post
      At least with young guys like Schroeder, Lavine, Capela, etc, you still have guys on their rookie contracts with potential.
      This seems like classic grass is greener stuff and overrating prospects for the sake of them being prospects.


      Yes these guys are young (though so is JV) but none of at all seem like impact star players that you apparently want. I like them for the most part (Lavine less so) but none of them are close to being top guys on contending teams.




      Conversely, Lowry is what he is, Demar is what he is, and Val is just not that great.
      This is just blatantly untrue. DeMar has clearly gotten better this season by any standard and I would argue JV has as well. I also don't think its clear that JV isn't good. Is he great yet? No, but he is a 23 year old center who already scores extremely efficiently while rebounding well and becoming more comfortable on D.

      This team is simply not going anywhere. You may as well make moves that try and move that needle. Try and increase the talent and upside.
      This is just the idea, that we should try things for the sake of it because well we arent one of the best 5 teams now and a random trade will make that work.

      I'm not against trading core players but only doing so if it actually makes sense. Trading JV for Zach LaVine is not such a trade.

      Comment


      • #78
        Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
        Believe we have to give two grades out for Ujiri.
        I have to give him a A for the work he has done to date in constructing a foundation, a brand and a management strategy.
        I have to give him a C for what that strategy has so far yielded in terms of wins and losses.

        Player Personnel (aka Drafting - Trades - Free Agents)
        In his three year stint he has taken the Raps overall talent pool and has improved it from what he inherited from the previous GM. I think he improved it a lot. The before and after compares are below.

        What He Started With
        What We Have Today

        PG: Lowry, Sebastian Telfair, John Lucas III
        PG: Lowry, Joseph, Wright
        SG: DeRozan, Alan Anderson, Landry Fields
        SG: Demar, Ross, Powell
        SF: Rudy Gay, Terry Ross, Linus Kleiza, Michael Pietrus
        SF: Demarre Carroll, James Johnson, Bruno
        PF: Amir Johnson, Quincy Acy, Barney
        PF: Paterson, Scola, Bennett
        C: Jonas Valanciunas, Aaron Gray
        C: JV, Bismack, Bebe

        Along with improving the talent under contract he has also accumulated four.. count them.. four first round picks in the next two drafts. He has moved out the dead weight, expensive, cap sucking contracts on the books for players at the end of the bench and replaced them with low cost deals for young players who are at the beginning of their careers who just might make a difference. Long gone are the days of the Raps having a couple of guys on 10 day contracts as soon they could.

        Management Team aka Coaches, Scouts, Trainers, Player Development

        Its pretty difficult to have any line of sight into the contributions of his overall Management Team. How good are the trainers, the pro and college scouts ? Hard to measure that. Coaches are lightning rods for anything that goes wrong and Casey and his staff are usually fired after every loss and even after some wins. No different than the other 29 NBA cities.
        I would make an argument that the Raptors have a respected organization around the league because they play everything close to the vest and don't hang out players or coaching casualties to dry. A good litmus test is that the Player Agents who wield a lot of sway on where their clients play don't play don't actively steer their clients away from Toronto and in a nice breakthrough this summer during LaMarcus Aldridge sweepstakes this summer the Agent and Aldridge gave Toronto a meeting while blowing off Phil in New York. How the world has turned in 3 years. While not a Tier 1 FA we did sign up Demarre Carroll a top of the band Tier B Free Agent right out of the gate to a fair deal for both sides.

        Management Strategy aka Overall Team Culture and Identity

        Along with building up a solid talent pool and acquiring draft picks to keep new and young talent coming Ujiri has also put in place an incubator for that talent with a D League team. Instead of languishing at the end of the bench younger players get a chance to play. A lot.
        The MLSE organization also will have in place a new practice facility that helps market the Raptor brand as up and coming and state of the art. MLSE have also quite cleverly for a bunch of 50 year old white guys secured the services of our man Aubrey Graham. Mr. Graham, who after fighting his way out of the mean streets of Forest Hill lends his considerable OVO brand to the Raptors efforts. It wouldn't be outlandish to say the Ujiri led Raptors have created an infrastructure and brand image that will not only keep our current players but hopefully attract a Tier 1 free agent to come here sooner rather than later.

        For all of the above he gets an A.


        Operational Grades

        This is the C. So far he has created a solid and fun to watch and cheer for regular season team that including this year will be a three year playoff team. 16 of 30 teams get to go to the post season so its a passing grade of C. It could be a lot worse. At least we get to watch the playoffs however hard its been the last couple of years.

        Once we advance past the first round and wind up in the ECF I would move the grade to B+ or an A-.... Getting to the finals is an A and winning it is an A+. We are closer today to a B+ than we have been in 15 long years when Vince clanked one off the rim from the corner.
        Good post. I can see that shot by VC like it was yesterday

        Comment


        • #79
          Masai is not infallible but unlike BC we have a GM that knows what he's doing and doesn't need tell all the media outlets what a great job he is doing. ...nor spin things constantly. At this point I have no significant reason not to trust MU.

          Comment


          • #80
            psrs1 wrote: View Post
            Masai is not infallible but unlike BC we have a GM that knows what he's doing and doesn't need tell all the media outlets what a great job he is doing. ...nor spin things constantly. At this point I have no significant reason not to trust MU.
            Everything he has done so far gives you no reason not to trust him. Really the only questionable thing he has done is keep Casey around, but that'll be determined next off-season.

            Comment


            • #81
              Just count the assets that Masai has amassed:

              Lowry and JV signed on good contracts.

              Bruno

              Bebe

              Powell

              Cory

              Carroll...has to get healthy and play well eventually right...RIGHT?

              JJ...can be traded at the deadline or...can we give him some kind of a raise with early bird rights?

              One of the top free agents on the market - likely to re-sign with the team.

              Ross...is just scratching the surface of his prime and is signed long term.

              Patterson - tradable contract, highly useful if his shot's going down.

              Biz and Scola - wildcards. Both have found a good thing in Toronto, but do kinda need to be paid somehow. Imagine if Masai these-aren't-the-droids-you're-lookinged them into not opting out...Still, you have to assume their relationships with him are pretty stellar. One or both could be back.

              Bennett

              DeAndre Daniels

              Nando Calrissian - not sure how much we're able to pay him, but he seems to be killing it for CSKA http://www.euroleague.net/competitio...r?pcode=002100

              4 first rounders coming right up.

              Exceptions and min contracts.

              We're in need of a consolidation trade because there's only so much room on the roster.

              Comment


              • #82
                By the way, Nando in Euroleague:

                #1 in Points (181)
                #2 in Field goals made (61)
                #2 in Index Rating (223)
                #3 in Field goals attempted (111)
                #4 in Fouls Drawn (51)
                #4 in Free throws made (43)
                #8 in Assists (49)
                #8 in 2-pointers attempted (75)
                #8 in 2-pointers made (45)
                #8 in Free throws attempted (47)
                #17 in Free throw % (91.5%)
                #21 in True Shooting % (59.3%)
                #24 in 3-pointers made (16)

                Comment


                • #83
                  SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                  Just count the assets that Masai has amassed:

                  Lowry and JV signed on good contracts.

                  Bruno

                  Bebe

                  Powell

                  Cory

                  Carroll...has to get healthy and play well eventually right...RIGHT?

                  JJ...can be traded at the deadline or...can we give him some kind of a raise with early bird rights?

                  One of the top free agents on the market - likely to re-sign with the team.

                  Ross...is just scratching the surface of his prime and is signed long term.

                  Patterson - tradable contract, highly useful if his shot's going down.

                  Biz and Scola - wildcards. Both have found a good thing in Toronto, but do kinda need to be paid somehow. Imagine if Masai these-aren't-the-droids-you're-lookinged them into not opting out...Still, you have to assume their relationships with him are pretty stellar. One or both could be back.

                  Bennett

                  DeAndre Daniels

                  Nando Calrissian - not sure how much we're able to pay him, but he seems to be killing it for CSKA http://www.euroleague.net/competitio...r?pcode=002100

                  4 first rounders coming right up.

                  Exceptions and min contracts.

                  We're in need of a consolidation trade because there's only so much room on the roster.
                  This is optimistic almost to the point of fantasy, Skywalker.

                  Here is how I would classify the assets:

                  Positive:
                  JV
                  Lowry (but remember the clock is ticking; he expires the summer after next)
                  CoJo
                  Knicks pick
                  Powell, though he has only internal value and not external value because he hasn't seen the floor

                  Neutral:
                  Patterson
                  JJ
                  Bruno/Bebe/Wright
                  Late first rounders--nowadays teams have been flipping them for early seconds because you don't have to pay a guaranteed salary
                  Expirings are almost valueless these days

                  Negative:
                  TRoss
                  Carroll
                  I know many of you will disagree but I honestly think that unless circumstances drastically change, we would probably have to attach consideration to move them, even if it's only second rounders. At best we might be able to use them for salary matching in potential sign-and-trades.

                  The crazy thing is that Masai's such a good negotiator that he might be able to move TRoss/Carroll into the neutral or even positive bucket through sheer persuasion. But that is by no means a guarantee.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Early Bird Rights allow you to sign a player up to just above the average salary, or 175% of their last year's salary. Those both work out pretty close to the same number for Johnson, about 4-5M, so yes we can give him a bit of a raise.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I'm pretty critical of Ross myself, but he's turned things around since the early parts of his extension. I think he's turned himself into a nice little asset. $11M for a good/young 3pt shooter is cheap considering the cap raise. I'd imagine he'd be a guy teams would want to have.

                      Carroll is probably the only negative contract on the team. And that's because he's injured. Once healthy he'll be a guy teams would covet.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        planetmars wrote: View Post
                        I'm pretty critical of Ross myself, but he's turned things around since the early parts of his extension. I think he's turned himself into a nice little asset. $11M for a good/young 3pt shooter is cheap considering the cap raise. I'd imagine he'd be a guy teams would want to have.

                        Carroll is probably the only negative contract on the team. And that's because he's injured. Once healthy he'll be a guy teams would covet.
                        Agreed, Ross is starting to come into form. Over the last 30 days:

                        27 min, 10.3 pts, 2.1 3PTM, 2.7 reb, 0.7 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.5 blk, .433 FG, 0.376 3PT% and much improved defense.

                        Definitely wouldn't call Ross a negative asset.

                        As for Carroll, his value is tied to his health. If he can get healthy I think we'll get our moneys worth. There is no need to rush him back, so hopefully we can get him up to speed by playoff time.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Primer wrote: View Post
                          Agreed, Ross is starting to come into form. Over the last 30 days:

                          27 min, 10.3 pts, 2.1 3PTM, 2.7 reb, 0.7 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.5 blk, .433 FG, 0.376 3PT% and much improved defense.

                          Definitely wouldn't call Ross a negative asset.

                          As for Carroll, his value is tied to his health. If he can get healthy I think we'll get our moneys worth. There is no need to rush him back, so hopefully we can get him up to speed by playoff time.
                          Apart from maintaining his shooting %, Carroll just earns what he gets. No mystery.

                          And it seems just about everybody signed this year and next will be an "overpay" if you look at it like someone born before 1990. So, yeah - if he's healthy, a good contract. Arguably not great ... but good.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            1. Drafting C

                            I've read a bunch of statements about how it's too early, but so far I've seen Masai draft a deep sleeper project, a point guard who was supposed to be ready right away, and a couple more projects in the second rounds. The truth is, choosing to draft a project versus someone who can contribute right away is a part of the drafting evaluation. Maybe he picked these guys to prolong his tenure because hey, you can't say he didn't draft well if he picked a guy who might be 4 years away from doing anything, right?

                            So from that perspective I would say his drafting is around a C average right now. He has picked up Bruno Caboclo who is probably another 2 years away from doing anything of note. Daniels.. just joined 905 from my understanding so he's neither a few years or 0 years away .. he's nowhere as far as I'm concerned. Delon Wright has looked great in 905, but doesn't fit into our immediate plans. So kind of a waste of a pick at this point. And there's Powell which, I dunno, might be a decent backup someday.

                            2. Free Agency A-

                            I think Masai has gotten some really good value in short deals with free agents. He's had to overspend a bit at times, but it's Toronto -- that's what we do. Getting Carroll was a smart move. Extending Ross not so much. Hansbrough was a great signing. Scola an even better one. Biyombo a good signing.

                            Deal he gave to Lowry was very nice. Valanciunas deal will pay off.

                            3. Trades B+

                            I won't comment on deals that were missed because a lot of that is rumor. It could very well be pure made up stories for all we know. His cleaning house moves from when he first joined .. beautiful deals. Bargnani, Gay.. Mmmm mmmm...Getting what we got for Salmons and Vasquez -- more genius.

                            4. His personnel (I.e. Coaches, Scouts, Trainors, Player Development) B?

                            Can't say much about this as I really don't know. I still don't think Casey was his man but he's done well enough with what he has to work with. Player Development is one of those things that we'd have to wait and see.

                            5. Overall Team Culture and Identity A

                            It appears that the players we have love to be here. I haven't seen, since Masai Ujiri came on board, any sour grapes from players who left. That was something we'd seen time and time again. Even when Lou Williams didn't get re-signed he didn't have anything bad to say about the team. I think that's pretty telling of the type of culture he has built amongst the players.

                            Furthermore every player that could have gone out to get a great deal has not done it. They've opted to stay here (other than Amir) and was willing to take a hometown discount. The players have really relished an underdog mentality. I'd say Masai has done a great job in this regard.
                            your pal,
                            ebrian

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Scraptor wrote: View Post
                              This is optimistic almost to the point of fantasy, Skywalker.

                              Here is how I would classify the assets:

                              Positive:
                              JV
                              Lowry (but remember the clock is ticking; he expires the summer after next)
                              CoJo
                              Knicks pick
                              Powell, though he has only internal value and not external value because he hasn't seen the floor

                              Neutral:
                              Patterson
                              JJ
                              Bruno/Bebe/Wright
                              Late first rounders--nowadays teams have been flipping them for early seconds because you don't have to pay a guaranteed salary
                              Expirings are almost valueless these days

                              Negative:
                              TRoss
                              Carroll
                              I know many of you will disagree but I honestly think that unless circumstances drastically change, we would probably have to attach consideration to move them, even if it's only second rounders. At best we might be able to use them for salary matching in potential sign-and-trades.

                              The crazy thing is that Masai's such a good negotiator that he might be able to move TRoss/Carroll into the neutral or even positive bucket through sheer persuasion. But that is by no means a guarantee.
                              Though I don't agree with how you slotted the current raptor assests ... I really like the "buy sell hold" logic you came up with to rank them !!
                              Last edited by Demographic Shift; Mon Jan 11, 2016, 09:03 PM.
                              There's no such thing as a 2nd round bust.
                              - TGO

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                ebrian wrote: View Post
                                1. Drafting C

                                I've read a bunch of statements about how it's too early, but so far I've seen Masai draft a deep sleeper project, a point guard who was supposed to be ready right away, and a couple more projects in the second rounds. The truth is, choosing to draft a project versus someone who can contribute right away is a part of the drafting evaluation. Maybe he picked these guys to prolong his tenure because hey, you can't say he didn't draft well if he picked a guy who might be 4 years away from doing anything, right?

                                So from that perspective I would say his drafting is around a C average right now. He has picked up Bruno Caboclo who is probably another 2 years away from doing anything of note. Daniels.. just joined 905 from my understanding so he's neither a few years or 0 years away .. he's nowhere as far as I'm concerned. Delon Wright has looked great in 905, but doesn't fit into our immediate plans. So kind of a waste of a pick at this point. And there's Powell which, I dunno, might be a decent backup someday.

                                2. Free Agency A-

                                I think Masai has gotten some really good value in short deals with free agents. He's had to overspend a bit at times, but it's Toronto -- that's what we do. Getting Carroll was a smart move. Extending Ross not so much. Hansbrough was a great signing. Scola an even better one. Biyombo a good signing.

                                Deal he gave to Lowry was very nice. Valanciunas deal will pay off.

                                3. Trades B+

                                I won't comment on deals that were missed because a lot of that is rumor. It could very well be pure made up stories for all we know. His cleaning house moves from when he first joined .. beautiful deals. Bargnani, Gay.. Mmmm mmmm...Getting what we got for Salmons and Vasquez -- more genius.

                                4. His personnel (I.e. Coaches, Scouts, Trainors, Player Development) B?

                                Can't say much about this as I really don't know. I still don't think Casey was his man but he's done well enough with what he has to work with. Player Development is one of those things that we'd have to wait and see.

                                5. Overall Team Culture and Identity A

                                It appears that the players we have love to be here. I haven't seen, since Masai Ujiri came on board, any sour grapes from players who left. That was something we'd seen time and time again. Even when Lou Williams didn't get re-signed he didn't have anything bad to say about the team. I think that's pretty telling of the type of culture he has built amongst the players.

                                Furthermore every player that could have gone out to get a great deal has not done it. They've opted to stay here (other than Amir) and was willing to take a hometown discount. The players have really relished an underdog mentality. I'd say Masai has done a great job in this regard.
                                He's only had two 1st round picks, the project in Bruno, and Wright who has looked really good in the DLeague. For those not paying attention, here are Wrights DLeague stats:

                                36 min, 18 pts, 5 reb, 7 ast, 1.6 stl, 0.5 blk, 2.6 TO, .532 FG%, .364 3pt%, .786 FT%, 3.3 3PA, 4.2 FTA

                                He's doing everything very efficiently, and he's hitting 3's at a high clip which is a very pleasant surprise. Could easily step in as our starter when Kyle's contract is up after next season, and gives us a reasonable PG duo (CoJo/Wright) if we decide to trade Lowry this offseason to shake things up (I love Lowry but he's probably our best trade piece). I really don't get people hating on the pick, Wright is going to be a stud in the NBA.

                                2nd round picks generally don't amount to shit, so the fact we may get a real player or two out of those picks is pretty damn good.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X