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The Biyombo Effect

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  • #16
    Bandit wrote: View Post
    I still love what he brings off the bench, so long as he's bringing it off the bench at <20 min a game
    Oh I completely agree. I love me some BB8. But I also love Scotch... Everything in moderation. Lol

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    • #17
      Bandit wrote: View Post
      I still love what he brings off the bench, so long as he's bringing it off the bench at <20 min a game
      Yeah, he is a great energy guy off of the bench. Not a starter though.

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      • #18
        Joey wrote: View Post
        Awesome post Axel.

        Pretty damning numbers for BB8 ... good thing he at least fell into a great nickname.
        I find it more interesting than damning honestly. But if he is coming off the bench (as he should) and Ross is coming off the bench (as he should), sounds like Ross won't be producing much.

        The more "damning" stuff is the marginal defensive stuff.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • #19
          Axel wrote: View Post
          I find it more interesting than damning honestly. But if he is coming off the bench (as he should) and Ross is coming off the bench (as he should), sounds like Ross won't be producing much.

          The more "damning" stuff is the marginal defensive stuff.
          With Ross and JV having always shown some sort of chemistry I don't think it would be terribly hard to manage it so that most of the minutes that go to BB and TR are seperated. Could lend more time to Demar playing with the second line up as well to buoy the bench scoring

          I'm not sure it's so much "Damning" to BB as it is support for JV's decent although unpretty defensive ability

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          • #20
            Bandit wrote: View Post
            With Ross and JV having always shown some sort of chemistry I don't think it would be terribly hard to manage it so that most of the minutes that go to BB and TR are seperated. Could lend more time to Demar playing with the second line up as well to buoy the bench scoring

            I'm not sure it's so much "Damning" to BB as it is support for JV's decent although unpretty defensive ability
            I agree with the first part a lot. JV+Ross pairings are really, really good so far this season. +23.9 points/100 possessions.
            twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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            • #21
              KHD wrote: View Post
              nice post.

              We've been saying this for a while so it's good to see the numbers. And they're not pretty.

              This guy is a major liability in big-minute situations.

              Cue the anti-JV crowd's excuse in 5...4...3...
              Honestly, KHD, I think you're confusing "Pro-Biz" people with (almost completely imaginary) "Anti-JV people". And, the way you've put it, seems anyone who questions (not the numbers, so far as they go, but) the inferences drawn from them, is just making "excuses"?

              "Bah, Humbug", KHD. But anyway ...

              Seems your post, Axel, does seriously undermine any "Biz=Wallace" argument.

              But I would say/ask four things (as counterpoint - but, again, I do not suggest that seeing these numbers laid out isn't very instructive):

              1. I guess you'd expect a drop-off in the offense when your number 2 guy is pressed into action as Biz has been (though there has been some suggestion that JV and Biz should be 1 and 1(A) - which is much belied by your post). So is the "Biyombo effect" really much different from any "our very good starter is out, and we're suffering" scenario?

              2. I wonder if these stats tell the whole (and an accurate) story (which is not to say - at all - that I am hedging toward any implication that these numbers are entirely misleading)? As some people do say, though, there are so many numbers around these days - I think it can be difficult to lay a situation completely bare through them ...

              3. Assuming these are overall numbers, I wonder whether there has been any trend upward in the numbers for Biz, during the season? I seem to see him blowing fewer "bunnies" lately ... and even making the occasional three-foot jumper. And he's new to the team, and still young ... so ...

              4. I believe (just a view) he will get better offensively - and also am of the view that he doesn't need to develop any perimeter offense to edge into a "starter" role (wherever he does... whenever that is ...).

              "Yeoman's work" from Axel though. No doubt there ...
              Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Mon Jan 4, 2016, 05:02 PM.

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              • #22
                Axel wrote: View Post
                I find it more interesting than damning honestly. But if he is coming off the bench (as he should) and Ross is coming off the bench (as he should), sounds like Ross won't be producing much.

                The more "damning" stuff is the marginal defensive stuff.
                well, i'd say it's pretty damning that he doesn't actually make our defense better than when JV plays, but makes our offense 10 points/100 worse.

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                • #23
                  I'll address the 3rd question there Wild-ling(and kinda the fourth). The answer is, sort of. Since going back to the bench, Biz's Drtg is up, Ortg is down, and usage is down. His plus/minus, however, is up. This is probably a result of the fact that our starting lineup, whether with Biz or JV, is just bad this season. Both starting groups(KL/DD/DC/LS/JV and KL/DD/DC/LS/BB) have negative net ratings and point differential per 100 minutes. The Biz group is much worse though, -9.0 differential vs. -0.7.

                  Pulling lineup stat splits, however, is very, very hard to do mostly because of sample sizes. Most lineups barely play together enough in a full season to qualify as a decent sample size, so pulling the numbers in smaller samples tends to be heavily biased at best.
                  twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                  • #24
                    Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
                    Honestly, KHD, I think you're confusing "Pro-Biz" people with (almost completely imaginary) "Anti-JV people". And, the way you've put it, seems anyone who questions (not the numbers, so far as they go, but) the inferences drawn from them, is just making "excuses"?

                    "Bah, Humbug", KHD. But anyway ...
                    I don't think i am, actually. I'm pro-biz.. in 10-15 minutes a game.

                    There is a contingent of people here who have consistently hated on JV. A lot of them have naturally jumped aboard the BB8 bandwagon.

                    You should direct your Bah Humbugs to them.

                    And if you really think they don't exist, well, I think you're the one imagining things.

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                    • #25
                      KHD wrote: View Post
                      well, i'd say it's pretty damning that he doesn't actually make our defense better than when JV plays, but makes our offense 10 points/100 worse.
                      The most telling piece of the OP is that JV's defense continues to be undervalued and underappreciated, largely because he isn't the athletic beast that BB is (nor does he get the same flair from our beloved announcers).

                      Biyombo does a great job of cleaning the defensive glass, including when there is nothing but Raptor jerseys under the basket waiting for the rebound. He goes after every single rebound with 100% effort, which is admirable - I'm not trying to downplay that tendency in the least. However, I find that JV is far more happy to let a wing/guard grab an uncontested defensive rebound that often leads to the break starting a second or two earlier, which can have its own advantages. I'm honestly not accusing Biyombo of being a stat-stuffer or JV of being lazy, but rather pointing out the difference in their mentality on the defensive end (although there was one play against Chicago last night where BB's aggression actually knocked the ball out of Carroll's hands and out-of-bounds, giving the Bulls a free possession, even though there wasn't a single Bulls' player on the Raptors side of half).

                      JV's defense, even his blocked shots, tends to be far more subtle. He does a great job of defending/altering shots, which doesn't show up on the stat sheet. He still has a lot of room to improve, but doing so would turn him into a premiere defender. Even when he gets 3 blocked shots, as he did last night against the Bulls, they tend to fly under the radar because they aren't as 'loud' as Biyombo's blocked shots.

                      JV is not overly athletic and looks like a lumbering giant, which I believe causes the perception of him to be slow and average-at-best defensively (memories of him playing in Casey's scramble defensive system last season don't help overcome these sorts of misperceptions either). The stats postulated in the OP back up my eye-test that JV's defense is already quite solid, now that he's playing in a system that he's better suited for.

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                      • #26
                        KHD wrote: View Post
                        I don't think i am, actually. I'm pro-biz.. in 10-15 minutes a game.

                        There is a contingent of people here who have consistently hated on JV. A lot of them have naturally jumped aboard the BB8 bandwagon.

                        You should direct your Bah Humbugs to them.

                        And if you really think they don't exist, well, I think you're the one imagining things.
                        Well, I think I remember someone (Joey? Thead? Axel?) saying that they had been hopeful of the Raps drafting JV, but were surprised at the quite negative reception the pick received. And I can imagine (as I must) how maligned he might have been for some time. But while I think there is one poster, now, who doubts the likelihood of JV's ever appearing in an All Star game, I think there's just one - and I don't think I've heard anyone talk of JV the way they (sometimes) talk about Ross (for example). So maybe I missed the JV "hate". But (as you'll likely have no trouble believing) I have been a pretty avid RR consumer for some months now.

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                        • #27
                          Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
                          Honestly, KHD, I think you're confusing "Pro-Biz" people with (almost completely imaginary) "Anti-JV people". And, the way you've put it, seems anyone who questions (not the numbers, so far as they go, but) the inferences drawn from them, is just making "excuses"?

                          "Bah, Humbug", KHD. But anyway ...

                          Seems your post, Axel, does seriously undermine any "Biz=Wallace" argument.

                          But I would say/ask four things (as counterpoint - but, again, I do not suggest that seeing these numbers laid out isn't very instructive):

                          1. I guess you'd expect a drop-off in the offense when your number 2 guy is pressed into action as Biz has been (though there has been some suggestion that JV and Biz should be 1 and 1(A) - which is much belied by your post). So is the "Biyombo effect" really much different from any "our very good starter is out, and we're suffering" scenario?

                          2. I wonder if these stats tell the whole (and an accurate) story (which is not to say - at all - that I am hedging toward any implication that these numbers are entirely misleading)? As some people do say, though, there are so many numbers around these days - I think it can be difficult to lay a situation completely bare through them ...

                          3. Assuming these are overall numbers, I wonder whether there has been any trend upward in the numbers for Biz, during the season? I seem to see him blowing fewer "bunnies" lately ... and even making the occasional three-foot jumper. And he's new to the team, and still young ... so ...

                          4. I believe (just a view) he will get better offensively - and also am of the view that he doesn't need to develop any perimeter offense to edge into a "starter" role (wherever he does... whenever that is ...).

                          "Yeoman's work" from Axel though. No doubt there ...
                          Well it wasn't my intent to undermine the Wallace comparison but I'll gladly take. Anytime a guy is an elite at two stats in addition to the 2 comparable stats, it's quite a leap. Lots of guys can rebound and block, but it's the steals (one of the best C ever for this) and not fouling that really set Wallace apart. Considering Biyombo's struggles with fouling and per steals numbers suggests he isn't likely to make many strides in these particular areas (which would be needed for the "style comp" to work).

                          To your numbered concerns/points.

                          1. Care to provide an example of a player situation to look up? If you're not going to do any research yourself, you could perhaps offer a more pinpointed situation to compare it to. Otherwise, it's just a vague point towards a haystack that may or may not contain a needle.

                          2. Another vague one. So your concern is that stats on the whole are sometimes misleading but offer no justification or specific thoughts as to why these ones in particular could be. Not exactly a lot to respond to. If these stats were solely in isolation and didn't follow up on multiple posts from the beginning of the season regarding concerns about Biyombo and spacing issues on offence, then perhaps you could ask for the eye test anecdotal evidence but since we had that in spades already, this is really just the numbers to capture what we already kinda knew.

                          3. I haven't seen any statistical breakdown beyond the numbers I provided. If you want to look at game logs to track on/off and do the math, then fill your boots. Personally don't think that Biyombo hitting the odd shot will dramatically alter how teams defend him or the team with him on the court.

                          4. That's your belief. It wouldn't seem particularly likely. The guy still struggles to catch the basketball (a skill most players have before entering the NBA, so hard to predict progress) despite having a catching coach in Charlotte and presumably numerous opportunities over the years. He may make minor steps (wouldn't even say the word strides applies) but he will never be a guy that defences are particularly concerned with. Accepting him for who he is instead of blind faith is my preference. He is a good back up center who can have a long career that way. He will never be good on offence but a team can work around him with talent/scheme to the point where he's worth keeping in that role.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                          • #28
                            Axel wrote: View Post
                            Well it wasn't my intent to undermine the Wallace comparison but I'll gladly take. Anytime a guy is an elite at two stats in addition to the 2 comparable stats, it's quite a leap. Lots of guys can rebound and block, but it's the steals (one of the best C ever for this) and not fouling that really set Wallace apart. Considering Biyombo's struggles with fouling and per steals numbers suggests he isn't likely to make many strides in these particular areas (which would be needed for the "style comp" to work).

                            To your numbered concerns/points.

                            1. Care to provide an example of a player situation to look up? If you're not going to do any research yourself, you could perhaps offer a more pinpointed situation to compare it to. ....
                            Point taken. I wasn't kidding when I applauded your effort to pull the numbers together ... and I knew full well I was asking for info I had no right to assume would be forthcoming.

                            Just thought someone might have a notion as to the answers I was seeking. But "no", I'm not minded, presently, to take out those particular picks and shovels ... (Not claiming to be the best engineer, either ...)

                            So, yeah ... just some thoughts ...

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                            • #29
                              Interestingly, only 1 Bismack 2-man unit has a positive net rating(Lowry). With everyone else, it's a negative net rating. The only person he has a sub-100 Drtg with in a 2man unit is Ross.(who only has a 100+ Drtg in 2man units with 3 regular players: Jonas, DeMar and 2Pat)

                              http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612...roupQuantity=2
                              twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                              • #30
                                Barolt wrote: View Post
                                Interestingly, only 1 Bismack 2-man unit has a positive net rating(Lowry). With everyone else, it's a negative net rating. The only person he has a sub-100 Drtg with in a 2man unit is Ross.(who only has a 100+ Drtg in 2man units with 3 regular players: Jonas, DeMar and 2Pat)

                                http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612...roupQuantity=2
                                I remember earlier that Lowry was the only net positive but that was only relative in that he still played better without him then with.

                                Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk
                                "My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
                                "If it's unacceptable in defeat, it's unacceptable in victory." - Jeff Van Gundy

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