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Building a contender on a knife's edge?

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  • #16
    Valid points being brought up but I don't think you're in a damned if you do situation if you pay derozan a lot of money to stay. Aside from the very few top 5 or 6 players in the league, almost every nba player requires certain pieces or fit around them to be successful. It's not something that's exclusive to derozan.

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    • #17
      JWash wrote: View Post
      Valid points being brought up but I don't think you're in a damned if you do situation if you pay derozan a lot of money to stay. Aside from the very few top 5 or 6 players in the league, almost every nba player requires certain pieces or fit around them to be successful. It's not something that's exclusive to derozan.

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      The difference is, a lot of other guys can also be the pieces you fit around the main guy. I'm not sure DeMar can easily be that. Remember, a few years ago when Westbrook's shooting numbers were down people were saying the same things about him, and Russ is better at passing and rebounding than DeMar.
      twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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      • #18
        Barolt wrote: View Post
        The difference is, a lot of other guys can also be the pieces you fit around the main guy. I'm not sure DeMar can easily be that. Remember, a few years ago when Westbrook's shooting numbers were down people were saying the same things about him, and Russ is better at passing and rebounding than DeMar.
        I think he can be a secondary guy.

        Just for example say we brought in horford. Why would demar have any issue playing with him?

        I'm just wondering who this list of elite players is that demar wouldn't fit with?

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        • #19
          JWash wrote: View Post
          I think he can be a secondary guy.

          Just for example say we brought in horford. Why would demar have any issue playing with him?

          I'm just wondering who this list of elite players is that demar wouldn't fit with?

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          It's more a matter of what does DeMar bring to the table if you already have Horford? If you have Horford, why would you want DeMar over, say, Redick or Korver, who would cost you less?
          twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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          • #20
            Axel wrote: View Post
            Can you provide examples of other max~ish players that support this?

            Seems to me, most max players provide a competitive advantage that you build off of, but if you don't, then your team may not be as good as it can be, but that max player is still productive at a max level. I'm not convinced that Demar is at that level and that he may, somewhat, be a product of the system.
            Well, true, I guess you're talking about a "max player" and not a player being paid the max. He's not on the level of Melo or Harden, other scorers who can (could) get theirs no matter what. So is he the scoring 2-guard version of DeAndre Jordan then? (this doesn't make as much sense as I originally thought it did - oh well)

            Like Zach Lowe wrote today, Masai is a shark. He won't cut bait on DD until "he knows he has replacements in the bag." So when people here want to get rid of the system and DD they usually don't have clear answers about what comes after that...other than some wet dreams about KD, Horford and Ibaka, magical Spurs/GS level ball movement appearing out of nowhere, or top 3 picks.

            I'm not saying I want him back in Toronto for the max, but I don't think he's been holding them back.
            Last edited by Mess; Tue Jan 12th, 2016, 12:06 PM.
            Two beer away from being two beers away.

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            • #21
              JWash wrote: View Post
              I think he can be a secondary guy.

              Just for example say we brought in horford. Why would demar have any issue playing with him?

              I'm just wondering who this list of elite players is that demar wouldn't fit with?
              Would entirely be dependent on Horford being able to shoot the 3.

              But the point of the OP isn't that we can't work with Horford, but that if we miss out on him (which he isn't really linked to us in any way), then we could be in trouble as the options that work with DD are more limited. Without a suitable stretch PF option, then Demar likely doesn't produce at a max level, so hard to make a contender with such a small margin for error.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • #22
                Axel wrote: View Post
                Would entirely be dependent on Horford being able to shoot the 3.

                But the point of the OP isn't that we can't work with Horford, but that if we miss out on him (which he isn't really linked to us in any way), then we could be in trouble as the options that work with DD are more limited. Without a suitable stretch PF option, then Demar likely doesn't produce at a max level, so hard to make a contender with such a small margin for error.
                What do you mean by miss out on him? Derozan has little to no impact on our ability to sign horford because we wouldn't have enough cap space to do so even if we let him walk

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                • #23
                  JWash wrote: View Post
                  What do you mean by miss out on him? Derozan has little to no impact on our ability to sign horford because we wouldn't have enough cap space to do so even if we let him walk

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                  And I'd like to add that scola is not a stretch pf so you could argue that demar is currently functioning at an elite offensive level without one and could likely play better with one (which is supported by his and the teams superior numbers when he plays with 2pat instead).

                  Scola can hit threes sure but teams don't defend him like he's a stretch 4. This is actually a problem that's been stressed from the beginning of the season by a few here including myself and danh among others.

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                  • #24
                    thead wrote: View Post
                    we really are at the stage that we need to turn our young guys, draft picks into something for a real run.

                    If not this season than over the summer into next. At that point we have to make a decision on Lowry.

                    As much as it breaks my heart, it's time to see what Wright, Powell, Noguiera, Cabolco, Scola, Patterson, Ross, Biyombo and 4 first round picks can turn into.
                    This is why it would be fascinating to be inside Masai's head. During Bosh's walk season, it became apparent that while he was good, you could not build your team around a 20-10 power forward as your max money guy. Demar might be the same story but then again, there are only so many Lebrons or Durants in the league. Some teams will never have a #1 star but maybe a 1A or 1B star. Anyways, that is what Masai is facing with the added bonus that it's not just Demar but Kyle as well.....hard to see a world where they keep/lose one without the other.

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                    • #25
                      Who was Miami's PF, the year they won the chip with Shaq? Wade, though he was elite is also described as a non shooting SG, so I think the comparison of he to DD can be made. Did they have a shooting PF that year? For the life of me I can only think of Udonis Haslem as their PF at that time.

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                      • #26
                        Mess wrote: View Post
                        Well, true, I guess you're talking about a "max player" and not a player being paid the max. He's not on the level of Melo or Harden, other scorers who can (could) get theirs no matter what. So is he the scoring 2-guard version of DeAndre Jordan then?

                        Like Zach Lowe wrote today, Masai is a shark. He won't cut bait on DD until "he knows he has replacements in the bag." So when people here want to get rid of the system and DD they usually don't have clear answers about what comes after that...other than some wet dreams about KD, Horford and Ibaka, magical Spurs/GS level ball movement appearing out of nowhere, or top 3 picks.

                        I'm not saying I want him back in Toronto for the max, but I don't think he's been holding them back.
                        As the linked article explains, DeAndre Jordan pressures the D with his ability at the rim. You can compensate for his offensive limitations because a) he can pressure the D, b) most of his value as a player is on defence and rebounding. The value of Demar's game is solely limited to offence.

                        I'm not suggesting that we cut bait on DD, merely that there is a significant risk that we cannot improve the ceiling of this team with Demar on it. Perhaps signing him and then shopping him is the best option.

                        I also don't think that the bolded is really fair for a couple of reasons. Some of those who want to keep Demar offer those same "wet dream" scenarios for improving the team. I've also seen some pretty good plans that don't include DD (I presented a pretty good 4-out offence plan for example) that go well beyond wet dreams.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                        • #27
                          Unicorns tend to keep growing, and their uniqueness is a competitive advantage.

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                          • #28
                            LJ2 wrote: View Post
                            Who was Miami's PF, the year they won the chip with Shaq? Wade, though he was elite is also described as a non shooting SG, so I think the comparison of he to DD can be made. Did they have a shooting PF that year? For the life of me I can only think of Udonis Haslem as their PF at that time.
                            Think Antoine Walker believe it or not. Posey at the 3

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                            • #29
                              JWash wrote: View Post
                              What do you mean by miss out on him? Derozan has little to no impact on our ability to sign horford because we wouldn't have enough cap space to do so even if we let him walk
                              You brought it up as a solution mate. I'm talking on court, not contracts.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                              • #30
                                Axel wrote: View Post
                                As the linked article explains, DeAndre Jordan pressures the D with his ability at the rim. You can compensate for his offensive limitations because a) he can pressure the D, b) most of his value as a player is on defence and rebounding. The value of Demar's game is solely limited to offence.

                                I'm not suggesting that we cut bait on DD, merely that there is a significant risk that we cannot improve the ceiling of this team with Demar on it. Perhaps signing him and then shopping him is the best option.

                                I also don't think that the bolded is really fair for a couple of reasons. Some of those who want to keep Demar offer those same "wet dream" scenarios for improving the team. I've also seen some pretty good plans that don't include DD (I presented a pretty good 4-out offence plan for example) that go well beyond wet dreams.
                                Yeah I amended the DeAndre comment because it didn't make a whole lot of sense after I thought about it for a while. Maybe Greg Monroe is a better example - one where it's going poorly because it's not an 100% ideal fit.
                                Last edited by Mess; Tue Jan 12th, 2016, 12:38 PM.
                                Two beer away from being two beers away.

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