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Building a contender on a knife's edge?

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  • #31
    Look im all for replacing derozan with an equal or better offensive talent that theoretically fits with more players... Problem is its not exactly easy to do that.

    I've said this before but demar is not the one putting a ceiling on this team, a lack of an A1 superstar is. Look at the past championship teams, the only one I can think of that didn't have a top 5 player in the league is Detroit in 2004. I suppose you could throw the spurs in 2014 in there but there are so many intangibles there that you can't get until you win titles so that's a non starter.

    I'm just trying to understand what this threshold is that derozan is preventing us from crossing

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    • #32
      Slashers also create spacing on the court. They just do it differently by drawing the defense into the paint they create room on the perimeter for shooters or any other kind of attack on the outside. Conversely shooters create spacing on the inside allowing bigs or slashers the room they need to operate.

      You need a healthy mixture of both.

      And I'm not repeat not saying were nearly as good as the spurs but they're currently starting three guys who make almost all their money inside and from the in between game in Parker Duncan and aldridge and dominating the nba.

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      • #33
        JWash wrote: View Post
        And I'd like to add that scola is not a stretch pf so you could argue that demar is currently functioning at an elite offensive level without one and could likely play better with one (which is supported by his and the teams superior numbers when he plays with 2pat instead).

        Scola can hit threes sure but teams don't defend him like he's a stretch 4. This is actually a problem that's been stressed from the beginning of the season by a few here including myself and danh among others.
        Well Scola is playing that way, whether he is a capable stretch 4 is another discussion, but since the starting unit has been quite awful with Scola in there, perhaps it's not much of a discussion.

        Scola is fulfilling the requirement and shooting at a good clip (40.3%). He shoots more 3PA than Joseph at 1.6 per game after his previous career best being 0.2 per game.

        So regardless of how impactful you feel Scola is performing, the fact that we signed a traditional post up PF and turned him into a stretch PF role, is another strong signal that a traditional post up PF isn't an option next to DD.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • #34
          JWash wrote: View Post
          Slashers also create spacing on the court. They just do it differently by drawing the defense into the paint they create room on the perimeter for shooters or any other kind of attack on the outside. Conversely shooters create spacing on the inside allowing bigs or slashers the room they need to operate.

          You need a healthy mixture of both.

          And I'm not repeat not saying were nearly as good as the spurs but they're currently starting three guys who make almost all their money inside and from the in between game in Parker Duncan and aldridge and dominating the nba.
          But this is where the roster limitations come in, a slasher draws more attention into the paint, so a traditional PF would lose a lot of the spacing they need to operate. You need a stretch PF with DD.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • #35
            JWash wrote: View Post
            Look im all for replacing derozan with an equal or better offensive talent that theoretically fits with more players... Problem is its not exactly easy to do that.
            You're right, it's not, but building around him might be more difficult. That is the premise of the OP.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • #36
              Axel wrote: View Post
              Well Scola is playing that way, whether he is a capable stretch 4 is another discussion, but since the starting unit has been quite awful with Scola in there, perhaps it's not much of a discussion.

              Scola is fulfilling the requirement and shooting at a good clip (40.3%). He shoots more 3PA than Joseph at 1.6 per game after his previous career best being 0.2 per game.

              So regardless of how impactful you feel Scola is performing, the fact that we signed a traditional post up PF and turned him into a stretch PF role, is another strong signal that a traditional post up PF isn't an option next to DD.
              This is fair.

              I would say though that I wouldn't want a traditional post up PF beside JV either.
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              • #37
                Axel wrote: View Post
                Scola is fulfilling the requirement and shooting at a good clip (40.3%). He shoots more 3PA than Joseph at 1.6 per game after his previous career best being 0.2 per game.

                So regardless of how impactful you feel Scola is performing, the fact that we signed a traditional post up PF and turned him into a stretch PF role, is another strong signal that a traditional post up PF isn't an option next to DD.
                On what teams and next to which players is a traditional post up PF an option anymore?
                Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                • #38
                  DanH wrote: View Post
                  This is fair.

                  I would say though that I wouldn't want a traditional post up PF beside JV either.
                  No, but we aren't paying JV max money. In terms of best value, a max guy should be able to produce at near max levels regardless of playing style next to him (team will suffer). I don't think that can be said for DD.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                  • #39
                    Axel wrote: View Post
                    But this is where the roster limitations come in, a slasher draws more attention into the paint, so a traditional PF would lose a lot of the spacing they need to operate. You need a stretch PF with DD.
                    Virtually all of the top power forwards in the nba can shoot the basketball. You're not going to have a packed paint if they're playing with derozan.

                    It's practically a requirement nowadays (hell it's not even really a new thing). Which top pf in the nba can't hit outside shots?

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                    • #40
                      Mess wrote: View Post
                      On what teams and next to which players is a traditional post up PF an option anymore?
                      Smart Ass response would likely be Markieff Morris

                      I think it is easier to find a PF who plays inside than to find a PF capable of shooting from the outside - all while trying to improve the ceiling of this team. The bold is the key to the entire discussion. It's not about just finding what works, but also what works AND can get us to the next level of competitiveness.

                      Kevin Love would be a perfect fit. Sadly, not many Kevin Love's to go around.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • #41
                        Axel wrote: View Post
                        No, but we aren't paying JV max money. In terms of best value, a max guy should be able to produce at near max levels regardless of playing style next to him (team will suffer). I don't think that can be said for DD.
                        These true max players you're referring to are underpaid on Max contracts.

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                        • #42
                          JWash, the question for me isn't if DeMar can fit next to a top level PF. It's if DeMar is necessary next to a top level PF.

                          If you can get the same level of effectiveness from the SG position with a guy who costs $10 million per year less than DeMar because the guy is a Reddick or Korver, why wouldn't you do that?
                          twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                          • #43
                            JWash wrote: View Post
                            These true max players you're referring to are underpaid on Max contracts.
                            I actually considered an aspect of the OP being devoted to trying to determine the varying degrees of value of the max guys, because in some essence, you are correct. Ultimately I decided that it isn't worth it until we have an actual $ figure next to his name.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • #44
                              Axel wrote: View Post
                              Smart Ass response would likely be Markieff Morris

                              I think it is easier to find a PF who plays inside than to find a PF capable of shooting from the outside - all while trying to improve the ceiling of this team. The bold is the key to the entire discussion. It's not about just finding what works, but also what works AND can get us to the next level of competitiveness.

                              Kevin Love would be a perfect fit. Sadly, not many Kevin Love's to go around.
                              Getting markieff wouldn't elevate the team even if he got his mind right.

                              If you're talking about power forwards that might legitimately take this team to the next level (and are somewhat obtainable in an ideal wolrd): e.g. Bosh, ibaka, horford, cousins, etc I don't see why these guys would clash with demar

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                              • #45
                                SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                                Unicorns tend to keep growing, and their uniqueness is a competitive advantage.
                                1. "keep growing": like really! How can there be any doubt in anyone's mind that DeMar will keep improving and be even better than the all-star, top 3 SG that he is already?

                                2. "uniqueness": was going to say much the same. Against opponent defenses, does the team have an advantage by attempting to duplicate line-ups that every other line-up the defense faces every night, or defenses having to face a unique player,,,, that produces, consistently, and efficiently?

                                smh at continued attempts to put down the value of DeMar, our all-star SG. Can't build around him because a contender needs blah blah blah blah. Contenders have always come in different forms, and continue to come in different forms. Two years ago, who would have said you can build a contender with a 2nd round pick, 6'7" PF/C? Any great basketball minds here were saying that 2 years ago?

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