Building a contender on a knife's edge?

[Mess]

You're thinking of the wrong article. The one in the OP provided by Rapsnz talked about using Demar in the post and the use of the stretch 4.

Oh right. The Cauldron is part of SI. The article in mention states posting up DD does "help stretch the defense for everyone else." And yeah, I think defenders tend to leave Scola so it's true. I agree with it. Though calling Scola's 3 pt shot dependable and legitimate is maybe a tiny stretch so early in the season.

[JWash]

Lol me neither actually

That is probably the case for everyone.... Why would we not all be happier about his play improving?

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[Axel]

Oh right. The Cauldron is part of SI. The article in mention states posting up DD does "help stretch the defense for everyone else." And yeah, I think defenders tend to leave Scola so it's true. I agree with it. Though calling Scola's 3 pt shot dependable and legitimate is maybe a tiny stretch so early in the season.

We are at 39 games of 82. Half a season isn't that small of a sample.

Besides, the point is more about how he is used by the team. We took a round peg and asked it to be a square one. It's doing better than can be expected but it's the fact that we asked, and, as I theorize with the OP, need to ask that's the concern.

[Joey]

Besides, the point is more about how he is used by the team. We took a round peg and asked it to be a square one. It's doing better than can be expected but it's the fact that we asked, and, as I theorize with the OP, need to ask that's the concern.

But Golden State ask their PF/C to shoot 3's and they have Klay Thompson and Steph Curry .. I'm not sure you can look at that as a knock against Derozan that Casey has encouarged Scola to shoot 3's when he's wide open.

[Mess]

And at least Scola isn't Kris Humphries.

[Wild-ling#1]

By now, most people have seen the article from SI's The Cauldron, provided by Raptorsnz in the Everything DD thread. It was pretty universally praised by RR members and is definitely worth the read.

But there is another side of this story which seems to have been largely missed. A few quotes from the article:

I think this OP is flawed. Ian Levy's piece discussed how DD is able to play at an All Star level, without a 3-point shot ... and without causing the problems that the absence of that 3-point shot might, given a lesser player, create. A number of quotations are offered in the OP. But I think the following one best exemplifies what Levy was actually saying:

If this DeRozan recipe sounds familiar, it’s because it is a relic from another era. This is a rough facsimile of how Michael Jordan played. And Kobe Bryant. And, more recently, Dwyane Wade. DeRozan isn’t turning back the clock or opening any fissures on the prevailing wisdom of modern basketball. He’s just really, really good.

The OP makes it sound like the rest of the team is compensating for a talented but deeply flawed player. I do not think that that was the point. Sure, the Raptors have complimentary pieces (and the LeBrons have a fantastic number of those). But Levy spent the bulk of the piece explaining, in detail, how DeRozan has improved in every other facet of the (offensive) game to learn to compensate himself for the lack of 3-point shot. He does all sorts of things - well or very, very well - to create spacing for himself and his teammates in order to help the Raptors prosper.

So ... I think the "We told you all along!" refrain that this article has occasioned is a distortion of Levy's intent and product ...

[Axel]

But Golden State ask their PF/C to shoot 3's and they have Klay Thompson and Steph Curry .. I'm not sure you can look at that as a knock against Derozan that Casey has encouarged Scola to shoot 3's when he's wide open.

But GS doesn't need their PF/C to shoot threes to play at an elite level.

Demar might.

[DanH]

I never said that has zero impact ... but if he takes only 17% of his shots from 3, and 100% of them have been assisted (2nd most assists on those coming from DD I should mention), and defenses don't actually play him like a stretch (because only 17% of his shots are from 3), what exactly is he stretching? Besides his shooting range.

I don't get it either. Scola is not playing as a stretch 4. He gets most of his touches in the post or high post. All of his three point attempts are wide open (all of his 2.4 3FGA's per 36, which ranks 275th league wide in terms of frequency of three point attempts, even though he has a top 150 usage rate - doesn't sound like a stretch 4 to me). Patterson is a stretch 4 - you know how I know? He takes 6 3FGA's per 36, well over twice as many as Scola, even though he has roughly half the overall usage (13.4 vs 20.4%).

Was Amir Johnson a stretch 4? He hit it at a good rate, but he rarely shot it, and defences didn't defend him out there, so, no, no he wasn't. Same goes for Scola - even though he takes it more than Amir did, defences do not play him like a stretch 4, so the "stretch" part isn't there, and for good reason - he spends most of his time inside, and will pass up even moderately contested threes.

[Joey]

But GS doesn't need their PF/C to shoot threes to play at an elite level.

Demar might.

Draymond averages 4 3's per game ... that's pretty hefty ... not sure how you can say they don't need that contribution to play at an Elite Level. Floor spacing is valuable no matter what kind of SG you have.

And besides, we're Top 10 in Offense and Defense, so I'd say that's at least pretty good indication that Demars play isn't hindering us too bad 40 games in.

[Axel]

I don't get it either.

So the fact that we took a player with 60 career 3PA in 8 years and have him shooting 62 3PA in 39 games doesn't strike you as odd?

Then taken with the greater context of "how do you make this team a contender" - is there any reason to believe that a non-stretch PF can be added to this team to take it to the next level?

Can we build a contender around DD, yes. I just believe that to account for his game, additional roster limitations make the margin of error for Masai smaller.

[Just Is]

That is probably the case for everyone.... Why would we not all be happier about his play improving?

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I think everybody is, actually. I think the animosity (for a lack of better terms) is due to the fact that he was not good for so long and that even his improved play this year is entirely due to a mental change then it is to a skill change.

That mixed with how the offense is specifically designed to highlight Demar's strengths as well as his glaring flaws also inflates value in terms of what he would mean for the Raptors' current system versus what he'd be worth to another system. As well as the notion that bringing in a superior player will impact Demar more than most other players which is where his value is also be an issue.

It's an unenviable problem for Masai.

[Axel]

Draymond averages 4 3's per game ... that's pretty hefty ... not sure how you can say they don't need that contribution to play at an Elite Level. Floor spacing is valuable no matter what kind of SG you have.

And besides, we're Top 10 in Offense and Defense, so I'd say that's at least pretty good indication that Demars play isn't hindering us too bad 40 games in.

Is Steph Curry elite even without Green? I'd say yes.

Your last line demonstrates that you are focusing too much on the now and not enough on the "how do we become a contender" aspect of this.

[Joey]

But Levy spent the bulk of the piece explaining, in detail, how DeRozan has improved in every other facet of the (offensive) game to learn to compensate himself for the lack of 3-point shot. He does all sorts of things - well or very, very well - to create spacing for himself and his teammates in order to help the Raptors prosper.

This is basically how I interpreted the article.

[JWash]

I don't get it either. Scola is not playing as a stretch 4. He gets most of his touches in the post or high post. All of his three point attempts are wide open (all of his 2.4 3FGA's per 36, which ranks 275th league wide in terms of frequency of three point attempts, even though he has a top 150 usage rate - doesn't sound like a stretch 4 to me). Patterson is a stretch 4 - you know how I know? He takes 6 3FGA's per 36, well over twice as many as Scola, even though he has roughly half the overall usage (13.4 vs 20.4%).

Was Amir Johnson a stretch 4? He hit it at a good rate, but he rarely shot it, and defences didn't defend him out there, so, no, no he wasn't. Same goes for Scola - even though he takes it more than Amir did, defences do not play him like a stretch 4, so the "stretch" part isn't there, and for good reason - he spends most of his time inside, and will pass up even moderately contested threes.

I concur.

I think a basic prerequisite for being a "stretch 4" means that a large bulk of your shots come from 3. Taking an making the occasional three-pointer does not a stretch 4 make. Real ones like 2Pat or Ryan Anderson take 40-50% if not more of their shots from 3 (2Pat is actually over 60%), as a result of their shot selection when they come into the game defenses are game-planning for them as three-point shooters not high post players like they would with Scola. It makes no sense to do that against Scola who's only going to take 1-2 threes tops in game and only when he's wide open, and as such teams don't do it. You don't get the spacing bonus you would from a legitimate stretch 4. Amir falls into a similar category.

The starting lineup we've been running with Carroll out is not tailor-made to DeRozan at all so idk why so many keep suggesting as much. James Johnson provides no kick-out option off drives, and Scola doesn't draw his man out of the paint. Hell I actually can't think of a primary option slashing guard/wing who has a worse set of floor spacers starting with them right now.

[Joey]

Is Steph Curry elite even without Green? I'd say yes.

Your last line demonstrates that you are focusing too much on the now and not enough on the "how do we become a contender" aspect of this.

Well you said Golden State doesn't need DGs shots to be Elite.

Without Draymond taking those shots, I think Steph would certainly have a harder go of it, for sure.


But fair point about the "building" angle; I was just looking at the existing evidence we have to work with, which says Demar doesn't necessarily need all those compensating pieces for us, or him, to be effective.