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  • Measuring the D...

    Primer wrote: View Post
    Love is playing awesome defense this year. He has a 99 DRtg. He's been an average to above average defender every season since 2011-12. Calling him a bad defender is talking out your butt.
    On/Off is a much better stat to look at than individual DRTG. Cavs are better with him off the court.

  • #2
    tDotted wrote: View Post
    On/Off is a much better stat to look at than individual DRTG. Cavs are better with him off the court.
    I think DRtg works a hell of a lot better than On/Off. But if you wanna use On/Off, last season the Cavs were +8.6 net with Love on the court than off. Also, Love has a +2 DRPM this season, which is pretty damn good. He also has a DBPM of 1.5 this year, again, pretty damn good. I've watched enough Cavs to know Love is a good team defender and excellent defensive rebounder. I feel like most of this hate is based on the Warriors game where the Cavs got torched by Curry and Thompson, yet Love is getting all the blame and he only played 21 minutes. How about the other 27 minutes of game time, where does the blame go for that?

    Edit: I'm looking at nba.com/stats and they have Love +4.2 on court, and +1.2 off court. Where did you see that the team is better with him off the court?
    Last edited by Primer; Tue Jan 19, 2016, 07:09 PM.

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    • #3
      Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
      Instead of using stats. Next game watch Kevin Love closely on D.
      I just said I watch some of their games and I disagree. The stats back me up. The defense was not any better when Thompson subbed in. The main culprit for the shitty defense was the guards, who got torched all game and couldn't guard the perimeter for shit.

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      • #4
        Primer wrote: View Post
        I just said I watch some of their games and I disagree. The stats back me up. The defense was not any better when Thompson subbed in. The main culprit for the shitty defense was the guards, who got torched all game and couldn't guard the perimeter for shit.
        Well Love has a had reputation as a bad defender his whole career. Its nothing new. His defensive numbers have looked good because he plays with good defenders(Mozgof, LBJ, Shumpert) around him.
        @Chr1st1anL

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        • #5
          Primer wrote: View Post

          Edit: I'm looking at nba.com/stats and they have Love +4.2 on court, and +1.2 off court. Where did you see that the team is better with him off the court?
          Cavs last year with Love were +4.8 on offense and +3 on defense. (This was with James Jones getting plenty of minutes at the 4 though). So the Cavs were +7.8 overall with Love in 2015.

          Cavs this year are +11 with him on offense and -2 on defense. So the Cavs overall are +9 with him.

          I'm using BBRef. For Opponent ORTG in the On/Off section, the number's value is meant to be inversed. For example: The Cavs' opponents are held to an ORTG of 101.1 with LeBron on the court and 105.4 with him off.. yet, it will read as a -4.3 on/off rating. The 'correct' value would be +4.3.. since he's a positive on that end.

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          • #6
            Kevin love is a liability to his team on the defensive end, fact, I'm surprised the debate has went this far.
            It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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            • #7
              Here are the five worst players in the league defending the pick and roll man per stats.nba.com, minimum 30 possessions:

              1. Jonas Valanciunas
              2. Kenneth Faried
              3. Cody Zeller
              4. Meyers Leonard
              5. Kevin Love

              I have no idea how pairing Jonas and Love is a good idea.

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              • #8
                Scraptor wrote: View Post
                Here are the five worst players in the league defending the pick and roll man per stats.nba.com, minimum 30 possessions:

                1. Jonas Valanciunas
                2. Kenneth Faried
                3. Cody Zeller
                4. Meyers Leonard
                5. Kevin Love

                I have no idea how pairing Jonas and Love is a good idea.
                Yikes...

                That's pretty damning of the potential Love-JV combo lol...

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                • #9
                  Scraptor wrote: View Post
                  Here are the five worst players in the league defending the pick and roll man per stats.nba.com, minimum 30 possessions:

                  1. Jonas Valanciunas
                  2. Kenneth Faried
                  3. Cody Zeller
                  4. Meyers Leonard
                  5. Kevin Love

                  I have no idea how pairing Jonas and Love is a good idea.
                  Need I say more?
                  @Chr1st1anL

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                  • #10
                    tDotted wrote: View Post
                    Cavs last year with Love were +4.8 on offense and +3 on defense. (This was with James Jones getting plenty of minutes at the 4 though). So the Cavs were +7.8 overall with Love in 2015.

                    Cavs this year are +11 with him on offense and -2 on defense. So the Cavs overall are +9 with him.

                    I'm using BBRef. For Opponent ORTG in the On/Off section, the number's value is meant to be inversed. For example: The Cavs' opponents are held to an ORTG of 101.1 with LeBron on the court and 105.4 with him off.. yet, it will read as a -4.3 on/off rating. The 'correct' value would be +4.3.. since he's a positive on that end.
                    So last season, the Cavs were better on defense with Love on the floor. Shoots the whole "Love isn't good at defense" argument right out of the water.

                    Now this season, the Cavs are 9 points better with Love on the court than off, so how the fuck is the argument they're better without Love? The -2 difference on defense is hardly significant, but the +11 on offense is very significant.

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                    • #11
                      Primer wrote: View Post
                      So last season, the Cavs were better on defense with Love on the floor. Shoots the whole "Love isn't good at defense" argument right out of the water.

                      Now this season, the Cavs are 9 points better with Love on the court than off, so how the fuck is the argument they're better without Love? The -2 difference on defense is hardly significant, but the +11 on offense is very significant.
                      Cavs only had one big coming off the bench (TT) meaning James Jones had to spend a lot of time at the 4 spot. Who do you think is better at defending 4s?

                      I dunno about anyone else, but all I was saying was that the Cavs were better without Love on defense this season. That was the point of the discussion right? I don't think anyone questioned his offense. Another thing... How are going to say the -2 difference isn't significant but then say the +3 means he isn't a bad defender?

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                      • #12
                        tDotted wrote: View Post
                        Cavs only had one big coming off the bench (TT) meaning James Jones had to spend a lot of time at the 4 spot. Who do you think is better at defending 4s?

                        I dunno about anyone else, but all I was saying was that the Cavs were better without Love on defense this season. That was the point of the discussion right? I don't think anyone questioned his offense. Another thing... How are going to say the -2 difference isn't significant but then say the +3 means he isn't a bad defender?
                        Neither are very significant, but combined they show Love is not a bad defender. He's average based on on/off, the only metric you guys could find that says he's not a good defender. Every single other metric says he's an average to good defender.

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                        • #13
                          Scraptor wrote: View Post
                          Here are the five worst players in the league defending the pick and roll man per stats.nba.com, minimum 30 possessions:

                          1. Jonas Valanciunas
                          2. Kenneth Faried
                          3. Cody Zeller
                          4. Meyers Leonard
                          5. Kevin Love

                          I have no idea how pairing Jonas and Love is a good idea.
                          That data may have been updated since last night.. because if I'm looking at the stats it shows the following in the top 15 (ordered by score frequency):


                          1. Jonas Valanciunas
                          2. Kenneth Faried
                          3. Jahil Okafor
                          4. Mason Plumlee
                          5. Luis Scola
                          6. Karl-Anthony Towns
                          7. Nikola Vucevic
                          8. Meyers Leonard
                          9. Hassan Whiteside
                          10. Robin Lopez
                          11. Kevin Love
                          12. Andre Drummond
                          13. Cody Zeller
                          14. Al Horford
                          15. Jared Sullinger

                          ... Love is at 11. Horford who many want to pay the max to is 14th.

                          Funny enough Scola is at 5th (now) and he's already being paired with JV as a starter.



                          *EDIT - I know what I did wrong. I didn't order it by "Percentile". Here is the revised bottom 10 in this stat:

                          1. Jonas Valanciunas
                          2. Kenneth Faried
                          3. Cody Zeller
                          4. Meyers Leonard
                          5. Karl-Anthony Towns
                          6. Kevin Love
                          7. Luis Scola
                          8. Mason Plumlee
                          9. Hassan Whiteside
                          10. Al Horford


                          Scola is 7th to Love's 6th. Horford isn't too far at 10th.
                          Last edited by planetmars; Wed Jan 20, 2016, 10:28 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Scraptor wrote: View Post
                            Here are the five worst players in the league defending the pick and roll man per stats.nba.com, minimum 30 possessions:

                            1. Jonas Valanciunas
                            2. Kenneth Faried
                            3. Cody Zeller
                            4. Meyers Leonard
                            5. Kevin Love

                            I have no idea how pairing Jonas and Love is a good idea.
                            Interesting. Do you have a link to that data and how the metric works? At Sloan MIT sport analytics conference, SVG questioned some types of new data, specifically PnR defense, as being far too subjective without knowing the intention and schemes that coach was trying to do. He was showing a bit of coach centric arrogance there, but made a valid point.

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                            • #15
                              The issue I have with P&R defense stats though is it's really not up to just 1 guy. Pick and rolls are like the epitome of requiring a full team effort to stop defensively. For example. If the coach's gameplan is to have both guys step up on the ball-handler (i.e. the bigman hedging). That means it's a third player's responsibility to make that rotation and stop the roller from getting an easy basket. In a situation like that, do the point scored count against the big involved in the pick and roll? Or the one who was supposed to make the rotation?

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