Game #52: Toronto Raptors 112 - Minnesota Timberwolves 117

[breakin_ankles]

I guess your counting on internal growth for the team to get better. No one else on the team has that type of value to bring back big name player.

Your right , the great organizations do that.. the spurs don't have a revolving door , constantly selling players on value ... Masai is showing that this is the direction he wants to go as well. Ross and JV are on fantastic contracts and have great ceilings.

[Chr1s1anL]

So Christian thinks JV is both a bad player but also a major trade chip?

Sounds about right.

Never said JV was a bad player. JV is a starting caliber center with his strength being able to score around the rim but, his a liability on D. Depending on the match up.

[JWash]

Package him for a star. His our best trade chip this summer.

I find you to be very objective. Unlike a lot people here. Where JV can do no wrong and when he does it either his teammates or coach's fault. So, I'll ask you a question. Do you see JV being able to guard those rookies for the next 10 years?

If this was the 2000s I would have no problem with JV but, it's not. That center position is going through a transformation. Unless JV learn to guard on the perimeter his going to be a liability. Players like Jokic/KAT are the future of that position. The really good centers will be the ones that can play on the block and on the perimeter. If you can only do one of the two than you can be serviceable like JV is. That just my opinion.

I don't think anyone is going to be able to stop Towns or Porzingis (if he reaches his potential). They are freaks. Towns is big and strong and can bully you on the block, but also step outside and knock down a three. And you wanna foul him to stop him? Well he's a knock-down FT shooter so you can't. You could try putting a smaller more mobile big on him, but he'd just take them into the post. Put a big guy on the post and he'll shred them with his high-post and perimeter game.

Porz is similar, 7'3 but plays like a 2-guard. There's just not very many players in the NBA who can even match up with a guy like that at all. He's like a more athletic and fluid young Dirk, it's crazy.

But these are exceptions to the rule man, not the rule itself. It's like guys like LeBron, Curry and Durant. LeBron's stronger than practically everyone but one of the fastest guys in the league (at least in his prime he was/is), Curry can pull up from 35 feet no problem, Durant is 7'0 but plays like a shooting guard is lightning quick and has the length to shoot over the Great Wall of China. There are very few guys who can guard these guys, that's why they're freaks, that's why they're the best players in the game.

You can't just disqualify JV because he can't guard guys that are exceptions to the rule. Most centers in the league can't shoot well outside and also score on you inside, it's almost always one or the other (and usually the latter). When it comes to those crazy versatile guys that can it's down to your team to try to stop them, but they're always going to be able to have big nights because they're just that good.

Like I pointed out earlier, the Spurs have one of the best defenses in the league and I'd argue that one of their bigs (Duncan) is slower than JV and the other is about the same speed. Memphis has been a top defense the past few years and I'd say JV is very comparable to Marc Gasol in terms of build and foot speed. Btw that guy won DPOY once.

[Nilanka]

I really do see JV developing into Marc Gasol.. once he trust that mid-range jumper, and get a larger role in the offence or an offence built around him.. he is showing signs of a developing passing game. The guy is 23 . Give it 2 years max.

He's still too vulnerable on the defensive end. Hasn't made as much progress as I would've hoped by now.

[LJ2]

Still have a hole at PF.

I think Chri1s1anL is saying is that we currently have 1.5 holes to fill. 1 at PF and .5 at C. Packaging JV may bring the number of holes which need to be filled to .5 because it's easy enough to find someone to do half of what we need from C.

[KHD]

He's still too vulnerable on the defensive end. Hasn't made as much progress as I would've hoped by now.

For comparison gasol wasn't even in the NBA at age 23.

I see progress on defence this season. partly a better system and partly him.

Of course it would be nice if he was further along by now but you can't be surprised considering who "coaches" our team.

[JWash]

12 points on 4/4 shooting, making those guys look like rookies defending him. He had his way on every opportunity, whether it was scoring, getting fouled, or finding an open guy for a 3.

You need to establish the "inside" game if you want to play an "inside-out" offense. There were times JV was wide open or had smaller guys on him after a switch, but DD and Lowry (and Joseph at times, surprisingly) forced their game way too much.

We don't play inside-out, that's not our offense. Our two best offensive weapons are in the backcourt.

I'm also not sure how you can logically say that DeRozan forced his game last night. He took 1 more shot than he normally does and scored 12 more points. 35 points on 11-19, 3-3 from 3 and 10-13 from the line with 4 assists and 1 turnover. But yeah "forced (his) game". Come on.

[JWash]

He's still too vulnerable on the defensive end. Hasn't made as much progress as I would've hoped by now.

Marc was older than JV is now when he came into the NBA. Didn't really become a very good defender until he was about 27 or so. Then won DPOY in 2013.

[Chr1s1anL]

I don't think anyone is going to be able to stop Towns or Porzingis (if he reaches his potential). They are freaks. Towns is big and strong and can bully you on the block, but also step outside and knock down a three. And you wanna foul him to stop him? Well he's a knock-down FT shooter so you can't. You could try putting a smaller more mobile big on him, but he'd just take them into the post. Put a big guy on the post and he'll shred them with his high-post and perimeter game.

Porz is similar, 7'3 but plays like a 2-guard. There's just not very many players in the NBA who can even match up with a guy like that at all. He's like a more athletic and fluid young Dirk, it's crazy.

But these are exceptions to the rule man, not the rule itself. It's like guys like LeBron, Curry and Durant. LeBron's stronger than practically everyone but one of the fastest guys in the league (at least in his prime he was/is), Curry can pull up from 35 feet no problem, Durant is 7'0 but plays like a shooting guard is lightning quick and has the length to shoot over the Great Wall of China. There are very few guys who can guard these guys, that's why they're freaks, that's why they're the best players in the game.

You can't just disqualify JV because he can't guard guys that are exceptions to the rule. Most centers in the league can't shoot well outside and also score on you inside, it's almost always one or the other (and usually the latter). When it comes to those crazy versatile guys that can it's down to your team to try to stop them, but they're always going to be able to have big nights because they're just that good.

Like I pointed out earlier, the Spurs have one of the best defenses in the league and I'd argue that one of their bigs (Duncan) is slower than JV and the other is about the same speed. Memphis has been a top defense the past few years and I'd say JV is very comparable to Marc Gasol in terms of build and foot speed. Btw that guy won DPOY once.

You might be right. When I look at the centers coming up its doesn't make me feel like those two will be the exception. Just in this draft you have Dragan Bender, Jonathan Jeanne and Qui. Draft after that you have the Maker brothers. Yes, we don't know how they will turn out but, they all have the same skill set.

Lebron was a exception because of his physic. No one has ever been that big and that fast. KAT/KP it's not really their physics but the skill set they bring at that size.

Only time will tell.

[Snooch]

We don't play inside-out, that's not our offense. Our two best offensive weapons are in the backcourt.

I'm also not sure how you can logically say that DeRozan forced his game last night. He took 1 more shot than he normally does and scored 12 more points. 35 points on 11-19, 3-3 from 3 and 10-13 from the line with 4 assists and 1 turnover. But yeah "forced (his) game". Come on.

that is a LOT of possession to come from essentially one spot on the floor.


An inside out game is more efficient offensively and allows the defense to get set up more as a result. You cannot argue that inside out works better than outside-inside-sometimes back outside.

[CNinja26]

One game. One tough road loss against a team with a lot of young talent who have been competing with good teams.

A ton of fouls called against the Raptors. Not saying there's something to it, but it's hard to overcome 50+ FREE point opportunities and constantly being in foul trouble.

To be honest, I think a lot of the Raptors were also very distracted with all the hoopla surrounding the All Star weekend. You know they're coordinating tons of stuff with their friends and family coming into town.

[breakin_ankles]

Marc was older than JV is now when he came into the NBA. Didn't really become a very good defender until he was about 27 or so. Then won DPOY in 2013.

Beat me to it... give it time guys, JV is going to be a monster. And the fact that he and Ross will hit prime together as DeMar is entering the end of his is a blessing.

Trust the process.
Trust Masai.
He is molding us after the Spurs

[JWash]

that is a LOT of possession to come from essentially one spot on the floor.


An inside out game is more efficient offensively and allows the defense to get set up more as a result. You cannot argue that inside out works better than outside-inside-sometimes back outside.

There's no definitive evidence that an inside-outside game is more efficient offensively. You play the best style for your personnel. Right now our most dangerous offensive players play in the backcourt. I absolutely think JV needs to be utilized more, but shifting the offense to inside-outside is not logical because 2 of our 3 best players play on the perimeter.

There is more than one correct or efficient way to play the game of basketball. Dumping the ball inside repeatedly and having shooters space the floor is not a play style that currently suits our personnel. I'm not even sure it would work with Jonas because I don't think he's dominant enough of a scorer (even in an increased role) to warrant constructing the entire offense around him like that. The bigs that have been successful in offenses like that have typically been completely dominant forces inside (Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan for example) but even Shaq and Duncan had Kobe, Parker and Ginobili making things happen on the perimeter. Hakeem had Drexler after his 1st title.

[Nilanka]

For comparison gasol wasn't even in the NBA at age 23.

I see progress on defence this season. partly a better system and partly him.

Of course it would be nice if he was further along by now but you can't be surprised considering who "coaches" our team.

Marc was older than JV is now when he came into the NBA. Didn't really become a very good defender until he was about 27 or so. Then won DPOY in 2013.

I see a lot of Marc Gasol comparisons in these threads. I think we need to remind ourselves that Gasol represents a best-case scenario for Jonas.

Either way, can we afford to wait another 3-4 years before Jonas clicks on defense?

[Nilanka]

To be honest, I think a lot of the Raptors were also very distracted with all the hoopla surrounding the All Star weekend. You know they're coordinating tons of stuff with their friends and family coming into town.

I'm sure this definitely played a factor. But that's where the maturity that Casey talks about, comes into play. We're not there yet.