Game #52: Toronto Raptors 112 - Minnesota Timberwolves 117

[LJ2]

no.

not with a core of Derozan and Lowry + some ~30 year old star that you might be able to get with a JV trade + many picks.

Let it play out, keep improving and building the youth talent.

The goal is to be good for the next decade and beyond, not the next 2 years.

I thought the goal was to win a championship.

[JWash]

Exactly , we want to be the Spurs , not the Cavs

Disagree on the Spurs/Cavs comparison. Cavs are actually a relatively young team at least for their core players.

But I agree with the sentiment.

You don't want to cash in all your chips and go all-in, unless all-in means that you're legitimately a threat to win the title. Trading JV for Horford or Gasol would not accomplish that. Just makes our title window shorter but not much more open.

[KHD]

Debatable. The goal is to win a championship.



I would take being the 2008 Celtics, over the 2008-2015 Hawks.

Ok.

And do you happen to know how we're supposed to suddenly acquire 3 hall of famers?

2008 celtics was a perfect storm.

[KHD]

I thought the goal was to win a championship.

i'd rather have 10 years of being a real contender than 1 championship year brought about by trading away assets and going "win now", resulting in 5 years of poor-to-mediocre teams after.

Also making "win now" moves has a pretty good chance of blowing up in your face too.

[Nilanka]

Ok.

And do you happen to know how we're supposed to suddenly acquire 3 hall of famers?

2008 celtics was a perfect storm.

Missing the point.

The question is, do we have enough talent on the roster to compete for championships? If not, how do we go about acquiring that talent? I'm just saying that it might require trading a young piece (like Jonas), to bring us closer to that championship goal.

A worst-case scenario, is us standing pat this year, getting bounced in the first round again, Casey gets fired, and DeRozan decides to walk.

[Nilanka]

i'd rather have 10 years of being a real contender than 1 championship year brought about by trading away assets and going "win now", resulting in 5 years of poor-to-mediocre teams after.

Also making "win now" moves has a pretty good chance of blowing up in your face too.

Where are you getting this '10 years of contending' idea from? Lowry's got 2 years left on his contract, DeRozan could theoretically be gone next year, and we've won a total of 3 playoff games in 2 years. This is not contending.

[KHD]

Where are you getting this '10 years of contending' idea from? Lowry's got 2 years left on his contract, DeRozan could theoretically be gone next year, and we've won a total of 3 playoff games in 2 years. This is not contending.

Not really the point, i was just speaking in general.

But ok,

How does a core of Lowry/Derozan/1 other guy contend?

Who do you expect to trade JV for? because if it's not Kevin Durant i don't see how you contend ever with that core.

So why would we trade youth assets?

[S.R.]

Not really the point, i was just speaking in general.

But ok,

How does a core of Lowry/Derozan/1 other guy contend?

Who do you expect to trade JV for? because if it's not Kevin Durant i don't see how you contend ever with that core.

So why would we trade youth assets?

Yeah, I agree that at this point you've got to hold on to assets for a trade that really puts you over the top. Lowry and DD are developing into regular All-Stars, but still not top 10 guys. Fringe pieces like Thad Young or Morris don't put that core over the top, at all. Ask the Nets (extreme example) about blowing your assets on a roster still not good enough to get you there - that can set you way back.

I'd be interested in shipping some combo of TR/PP/JJ/prospects/picks for a Horford-level of player or better (have to include a core player for better), but not for fringe guys like Morris and Young. Maaaayyyyybbe you end up with a net positive adding a guy like Young (better starting unit, weaker bench), but it looks dicey. Doesn't seem to be worth the risk, considering the assets going out and the still-limited ceiling with the incoming piece.

[slaw]

Not really the point, i was just speaking in general.

But ok,

How does a core of Lowry/Derozan/1 other guy contend?

Who do you expect to trade JV for? because if it's not Kevin Durant i don't see how you contend ever with that core.

So why would we trade youth assets?

And you might not contend or even be competitive with whatever team you have in 5 or 6 years. You're setting up a false choice where the only two options are: (a) trying to win now and failing and being terrible for some indeterminate period of time; and (b) building for tomorrow and being competitive for the next 10 years.

Bottom line is that the Raps already have 4 young players on the roster (I'm not counting Bennett) and 4 first rounders the next two years. You can't develop 8 guys at the same time. Roster moves are going to be made. If done correctly, you can compete now, tomorrow and going forward. But abandoning the idea of short-term improvement entirely based on the allure of tomorrow is an awful idea and a sure-fire way to ensure you never actually accomplish anything while always selling the promise of the future.

[KHD]

And you might not contend or even be competitive with whatever team you have in 5 or 6 years. You're setting up a false choice where the only two options are: (a) trying to win now and failing and being terrible for some indeterminate period of time; and (b) building for tomorrow and being competitive for the next 10 years.

Bottom line is that the Raps already have 4 young players on the roster (I'm not counting Bennett) and 4 first rounders the next two years. You can't develop 8 guys at the same time. Roster moves are going to be made. If done correctly, you can compete now, tomorrow and going forward. But abandoning the idea of short-term improvement entirely based on the allure of tomorrow is an awful idea and a sure-fire way to ensure you never actually accomplish anything while always selling the promise of the future.

well, obviously the bold is ideal.

In the end I just don't think Derozan and Lowry are on a level where you consider trading to get another 30-year-old star. Especially not when this much of your success this season has come from young guys like Joseph and Ross stepping up, JV improving, and you might have some possibility to make salary-cap moves in the next couple offseasons to get guys.

This is a decent team and a large portion of success is coming from guys who in theory aren't in their prime yet. even Derozan is just 26.

[Nilanka]

Not really the point, i was just speaking in general.

But ok,

How does a core of Lowry/Derozan/1 other guy contend?

Who do you expect to trade JV for? because if it's not Kevin Durant i don't see how you contend ever with that core.

So why would we trade youth assets?

Like S.R. mentioned, I think Horford is the type of talent that could have a meaningful impact on this team's ability to "contend" (ignoring the risk associated with acquiring a free agent to be).

[Barolt]

Just finished watching. We played a solid first half, but what a painful second half.

So much forced offense. Why is Cory running that many ISOs in any game?

Way too much talking to the refs from everyone on our team. Honestly, when Ross took his 4th foul on his second straight touch foul on an awful call to put us into the bonus early in the 4th, Casey should've taken a tech to try to influence the refs and show his players he had their back.

Scola was a mess, but that's been covered.

DeMar was awesome offensively, although some of those shots I think he misses more often than he makes, but they went in last night so whatever. His defense on Wiggins wasn't good, but that wasn't what killed us.

As usual, 4 Raptors had a positive net rating last night. Biz, Patterson, Joseph, Ross.

Scola is destroying our starting lineup, and this is going to kill us in the playoffs if we don't address it at some point.

14 first half assists, 5 second half assists. This would bother me if I didn't expect it at this point in any close game.

[breakin_ankles]

Like S.R. mentioned, I think Horford is the type of talent that could have a meaningful impact on this team's ability to "contend" (ignoring the risk associated with acquiring a free agent to be).

Also ignoring the fact that the pieces we would he required to send would completely change the team that is currently 2nd in the east. Most likely completely depleting our most useful asset, the bench.

[GLF]

Ideally you'd want the attack to be more balanced between Lowry-DD-JV. All of them with sort of 1A, 1B, 1C scoring roles Billups-Rip-Sheed with the old Pistons teams.

You don't need to play inside-outside to do that, and that isn't even logical. Just dumping the ball to JV all game and having the rest of the guys float around the perimeter doesn't make sense when you have two backcourt weapons that are that dangerous. It just requires a smart shift in gameplan.

Would be similar to what the Warriors have done with Green over the past few years. Instead of Curry-Klay just being the only ones really used as offensive weapons, now Green has become the #3 or even #2 guy on that team on offense. That doesn't mean that Curry/Klay don't still get their shots, you're just utilizing that third weapon more.

Exactly. JV still isn't a dominant enough offensive player to just be giving him the ball almost every time down the court and telling him to go to work. The reason why he is so efficient and looks so good is BECAUSE his usage isn't ridiculously high and we pick and choose when to use him in the post. As you said yes I definitely agree he needs more touches but I do not think the our offense should revolve around him whatsoever. But 4 touches isn't good for sure. The inside out game doesn't really suit our team that much. Demar did force things down the stretch though. But I thought he got fouled a couple of times and nothing was called but then every ticky tack foul on our end was called. But that's doesn't give him a pass for taking a lot of long 2's and almost trying to prove something because a second year player was guarding him. Every time we lose the reason is always because JV didn't get enough touches in some people's eyes when normally it's because we couldn't get any stops down the stretch.

[Barolt]

Exactly. JV still isn't a dominant enough offensive player to just be giving him the ball almost every time down the court and telling him to go to work. The reason why he is so efficient and looks so good is BECAUSE his usage isn't ridiculously high and we pick and choose when to use him in the post. As you said yes I definitely agree he needs more touches but I do not think the our offense should revolve around him whatsoever. But 4 touches isn't good for sure. The inside out game doesn't really suit our team that much. Demar did force things down the stretch though. But I thought he got fouled a couple of times and nothing was called but then every ticky tack foul on our end was called. But that's doesn't give him a pass for taking a lot of long 2's and almost trying to prove something because a second year player was guarding him. Every time we lose the reason is always because JV didn't get enough touches in some people's eyes when normally it's because we couldn't get any stops down the stretch.

I've been arguing for more than a month that the best place to use JV at this point is at the elbow, and he should get more touches there. Perfect place for him to make passes to DeMar/Ross/DeMarre on back cuts, or punish the defense if they sag off him, or initiate a set for a 3pt shot.