Game #52: Toronto Raptors 112 - Minnesota Timberwolves 117

[DanH]

It's definitely a gamble. Like the Jays acquiring David Price and hoping he re-signs. Except the Raptors have an ownership group who would be willing to empty their pockets.

Yeah but even then, in the case he does re-sign the upgrade you've made is marginal - not insignificant, but not tremendous either, and you still have the same hole at PF (though with less assets to address it).

It's simply not worth the risk.

[Snooch]

Missing the point.

The question is, do we have enough talent on the roster to compete for championships? If not, how do we go about acquiring that talent? I'm just saying that it might require trading a young piece (like Jonas), to bring us closer to that championship goal.

A worst-case scenario, is us standing pat this year, getting bounced in the first round again, Casey gets fired, and DeRozan decides to walk.

Thats a fantastic worst case

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[Nilanka]

Thats a fantastic worst case

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lol. You have to admit that losing DeRozan for nothing, is terrible asset management (regardless of how you feel about him as a player).

[golden]

It's definitely a gamble. Like the Jays acquiring David Price and hoping he re-signs. Except the Raptors have an ownership group who would be willing to empty their pockets.

Baseball is a completely different animal when it comes to player supply/demand dynamics. The baseball minor league system is a vast and comprehensive player development machine that is much easier to re-stock. The basketball minor league system is a pathetic joke. Couple this with the impact of any single baseball player (even an ace pitcher) being far less than in basketball, making acquisition cost of star players in basketball astronomical. So, losing a few assets by losing out on re-signing a rental player in baseball isn't nearly as damaging as squandering precious trade assets in basketball.

[Nilanka]

Baseball is a completely different animal when it comes to player supply/demand dynamics. The baseball minor league system is a vast and comprehensive player development machine that is much easier to re-stock. The basketball minor league system is a pathetic joke. Couple this with the impact of any single baseball player (even an ace pitcher) being far less than in basketball, making acquisition cost of star players in basketball astronomical. So, losing a few assets by losing out on re-signing a rental player in baseball isn't nearly as damaging as squandering precious trade assets in basketball.

This works both ways. Because a single player can have such a large impact in basketball, the reward can by far greater too.

Like I said, it's a gamble.

[DanH]

This works both ways. Because a single player can have such a large impact in basketball, the reward can by far greater too.

Like I said, it's a gamble.

Mind you, we should also keep in mind that Price is significantly higher up the ladder in terms of top players in the MLB than Horford is right now in the NBA. The comparable would be Durant, not Horford. And I obviously wouldn't hesitate to trade JV for a fighting chance at Durant long term.

[JWash]

lol. You have to admit that losing DeRozan for nothing, is terrible asset management (regardless of how you feel about him as a player).

Look at his avatar and sig.

[Mapko]

Yeah, I agree that at this point you've got to hold on to assets for a trade that really puts you over the top. Lowry and DD are developing into regular All-Stars, but still not top 10 guys. Fringe pieces like Thad Young or Morris don't put that core over the top, at all. Ask the Nets (extreme example) about blowing your assets on a roster still not good enough to get you there - that can set you way back.

Nets did not blow their assets to get KG & PP. They had none, instead they mortgaged their future & failed misearably.

And you might not contend or even be competitive with whatever team you have in 5 or 6 years. You're setting up a false choice where the only two options are: (a) trying to win now and failing and being terrible for some indeterminate period of time; and (b) building for tomorrow and being competitive for the next 10 years.

Bottom line is that the Raps already have 4 young players on the roster (I'm not counting Bennett) and 4 first rounders the next two years. You can't develop 8 guys at the same time. Roster moves are going to be made. If done correctly, you can compete now, tomorrow and going forward. But abandoning the idea of short-term improvement entirely based on the allure of tomorrow is an awful idea and a sure-fire way to ensure you never actually accomplish anything while always selling the promise of the future.

I agree 100%!
This IMO (bold) is key. Thus, only 2 realistic choices:
1. Make a change now before trade deadline & hope for a better result or
2. Make changes in the off-season AFTER our opportunity now is gone.
This team (with 2Pat & Scola & healthy DC back) might get us out of 1st round, but I highly doubt gets to ECF or better.
I'm not advocating for a desperate move, nor do I want to move any of 4 starters (KL, DD, DC, JV) nor Joseph, but something clearly has to be done. Sure, I'd love to be able to get Horford for spare parts (even draft choices), but if not, even a bit more riskier (and cheaper) move like M Morris or Anderson or ZBo. None of those will cost us NY 1st. So, we lose 2Pat or Scola or Wright or Bebe, so what? I would not give them away, but it's a risk worth taking & you can replace then with 2 first rounders in 2016.
East can be had. James is a beast, but Irving & Love are injury prone. Realistically (as our record indicates, yes I know last 2 years.......) our main (& maybe only) opposition is Cavs. You sure our "internal growth" & 2 first rounders will get us that much better (potentially compared to other teams with more cap space)?

[tDotted]

Nets did not blow their assets to get KG & PP. They had none, instead they mortgaged their future & failed misearably.

Sorry, what?

[JWash]

Lol the Nets traded every asset they could for those two.

It's like Ainge just opened up their asset cupboard and was like "I'll take this... and that... some of that... oh that looks nice... hmm maybe this too... almost done...there! Empty!"

[Mapko]

Sorry, what?

You mean to say Nets would not be where they are had they kept Keith Bogans, M Brooks, Kris Joseph & G Wallace? Are any of them even in NBA today?
Now losing 2014 1st, soon 2016 & 2018 is mortgaging the future.
In addition a 1 first for Wallace (=Lillard) & Favours deal did not help either.

[tDotted]

You mean to say Nets would not be where they are had they kept Keith Bogans, M Brooks, Kris Joseph & G Wallace? Are any of them even in NBA today?
Now losing 2014 1st, soon 2016 & 2018 is mortgaging the future.
In addition a 1 first for Wallace (=Lillard) & Favours deal did not help either.

Nets did not blow their assets to get KG & PP. They had none, instead they mortgaged their future & failed misearably.

Picks are assets dude.. really big ones at that, and the Nets blew away all they could. You're splitting hairs at this point.

[KHD]

You mean to say Nets would not be where they are had they kept Keith Bogans, M Brooks, Kris Joseph & G Wallace? Are any of them even in NBA today?
Now losing 2014 1st, soon 2016 & 2018 is mortgaging the future.
In addition a 1 first for Wallace (=Lillard) & Favours deal did not help either.

3 1st round picks traded over the next 6 years in exchange for old (used to be) superstars? yeah, that was dumb as fuck.

[3inthekeon]

Nets did not blow their assets to get KG & PP. They had none, instead they mortgaged their future & failed misearably.


I agree 100%!
This IMO (bold) is key. Thus, only 2 realistic choices:
1. Make a change now before trade deadline & hope for a better result or
2. Make changes in the off-season AFTER our opportunity now is gone.
This team (with 2Pat & Scola & healthy DC back) might get us out of 1st round, but I highly doubt gets to ECF or better.
I'm not advocating for a desperate move, nor do I want to move any of 4 starters (KL, DD, DC, JV) nor Joseph, but something clearly has to be done. Sure, I'd love to be able to get Horford for spare parts (even draft choices), but if not, even a bit more riskier (and cheaper) move like M Morris or Anderson or ZBo. None of those will cost us NY 1st. So, we lose 2Pat or Scola or Wright or Bebe, so what? I would not give them away, but it's a risk worth taking & you can replace then with 2 first rounders in 2016.
East can be had. James is a beast, but Irving & Love are injury prone. Realistically (as our record indicates, yes I know last 2 years.......) our main (& maybe only) opposition is Cavs. You sure our "internal growth" & 2 first rounders will get us that much better (potentially compared to other teams with more cap space)?

PPat is better than ZBo (and ZBo is in decline), at least as good as Anderson (and has one more year of control), and has been better than this year's Morris, though not last year's Morris.

[golden]

Mind you, we should also keep in mind that Price is significantly higher up the ladder in terms of top players in the MLB than Horford is right now in the NBA. The comparable would be Durant, not Horford. And I obviously wouldn't hesitate to trade JV for a fighting chance at Durant long term.

Again, really bad analogy trying to compare baseball players and basketball players impact. There is no comparable. Jays had Roger Clemens at his absolute peak - arguably top 5 GOAT pitcher. Even had Hentgen and Chris Carpenter on the same staff and never got close to post season.

Not sure I'd rent Durant for 3 months for the cost of JV, with no guarantees and Casey as my playoff coach to convince KD to re-sign. Could be Rudy/DD/Lowry all over again.