DeRozan and Lowry will end up being the best raptors of all time

[KeonClark]

if it was season wise VC is better than both dd and kl by far

lets just say its 50/50 on history and best season

Did he though? Making a thread now..

[tDotted]

Have to disagree completely wmcj..

Saying Bosh never elevated talent around him is pretty unfair considering the fact almost that entire roster didn't do shit career-wise before or after their Raptors stint. In the season we were 3 wins shy of 50 wins (06-07), the starting lineup was TJ Ford, Anthony Parker, Garbs, & Nesterovic. Every single one of those guys were more efficient than they've ever been in their respective career playing alongside Bosh.

Bosh is still so high on the 'all-time Raptors list' because he straight up carried a team of role players to the playoffs (multiple times) and nearly 50 wins (despite missing 13 games).

[white men can't jump]

Have to disagree completely wmcj..

Saying Bosh never elevated talent around him is pretty unfair considering the fact almost that entire roster didn't do shit career-wise before or after their Raptors stint. In the season we were 3 wins shy of 50 wins (06-07), the starting lineup was TJ Ford, Anthony Parker, Garbs, & Nesterovic. Every single one of those guys were more efficient than they've ever been in their respective career playing alongside Bosh.

Bosh is still so high on the 'all-time Raptors list' because he straight up carried a team of role players to the playoffs (multiple times) and nearly 50 wins (despite missing 13 games).

Well TJ Ford had career ending injury issues, so that's not really fair, and his injury issues were key to the team's inability to replicate their success. He may not have produced as much as Bosh, but he was the engine of that team (and Garbo was the heart). He tried to keep his career going, and actually produced a comparable year in Indy before injury issues started up again. He was still really young so he could've still just been scratching the surface...though I don't think his ceiling could've been that much higher for like a 5'8'' PG.

Garbo broke his leg, had a run in with the franchise over playing for his national team, and never played a meaningful minute in the NBA again. He was a key cog on that team, and played a role not that different from what Draymond does for the Warriors (obviously in a poor man's sense). He'd guard any frontcourt position, and play a glue-guy game doing whatever the team needed. He was critical to the success the team had.

Parker got old after he left Toronto and played his prime in Europe. He was a smart well rounded wing player who could shoot the ball...can't really say he wouldn't have had success elsewhere. He still played pretty well in Cleveland on the decline. He played great ball for Toronto.

Rasho played a big role on good teams in Minny and San Antonio. Don't really see how his game was any better beside Bosh. He had a higher FG% I guess is what you're looking at or something? He also played less minutes in a smaller role than earlier on in his career, and didn't really contribute as much because of that. He declined pretty early, but his best years were not in Toronto.

So of your guys, two had serious injury issues disrupt/end their tenure in Toronto (and again, Ford had another good year in Indy before injuries started piling up), and two basically got old while one of those had his best years post-Toronto.

This doesn't even account for the bench. They had Jose (who with Ford formed arguably the best PG tandem in the league), who continued to have very good/efficient years for the Raps with and without Bosh. They had Mo Pete, who had great years earlier and was still a very good 2-way wing role player. As much as Raps fans hate him, Bargs had a good rookie year for us off the bench...was it because he played beside Bosh? He had shit years next to Bosh too. I'm not blaming Bosh for Bargs' struggles, just want to point out that Bargs being a functional part of a team for his rookie year clearly has no direct relationship to Bosh's presence on the team. They replaced Jones with Dixon, two re-treads that no one really cares to talk about. Dixon played well for us...he got to shoot a lot and scored a bit. He was a chucker. Don't know if he had another decent year or two, don't care. His style of play is not really dependent much on others.

So for a year, Bosh was the centrepiece of a system whose success they couldn't replicate afterwards, despite all Colangelo's best misguided efforts. They certainly had teams with a similar talent level where Bosh was also the best player. But the success and failures of those teams didn't really depend on Bosh, it depended as much/more on those around him. In other words, he was not and never has been a franchise talent/player. He can't singlehandedly carry teams to anything, and I don't know why anyone thinks he's done that. So how much does he really elevate talent around him? I'd say not that much.

Bosh is a very talented player, and will make the HOF in all likelihood, but his time in Toronto was not impressive apart from him getting to put up big numbers. He did nothing for this franchise, and left to go be what he should be, a 2nd fiddle to an actual great player. So why put him ahead of DeMar when DeMar is 2nd fiddle on the very good team we have now that has had more success than any of Bosh's teams in Toronto?

[white men can't jump]

I'm not saying Bosh wasn't great for us, but we were going nowhere with him as our franchise player, and it wouldn't matter who you put around him. You'd have to put a better player ahead of him. He got to do that in Miami. I don't understand why he gets to be elevated for doing so little in his time here. I get we haven't had that many good players yet, but I think DeMar has been here long enough and done enough that after this year it'd be safe to bump him ahead of Bosh. He'd be the 2nd best player on a team making three straight playoffs with homecourt advantage (yes, I realize it means little without winning, but Bosh never made it out of the 1st round here either). And from a perception standpoint, Bosh helped oversee the decline of what Vince built, while Lowry+DeMar (and remember, DeMar was here through the bad years) helped bring it back out of the gutter it fell into after Bosh left. What exactly are we still loving about Bosh?

*Anyway, I don't care about this to argue more about it. But yeah, I'm surprised Bosh still draws so much admiration for one good year in 7 (where the impact of his teammates is seemingly underrated).

[DanH]

I don't know. I have a hard time keeping Bosh so high.

Are we talking talent here? Or what the players meant for the team while being here?

Bosh was a supremely talented player for us who put up big numbers. And it's not like he was a bad guy. Not exactly a leader though, and it was probably the most disappointing, treadmill-like era in franchise history. And he left without a second thought to ride LeBron to some rings. I mean, I don't really have anything against him, but I'm not sure I'd put him ahead of Lowry and DD now (and these 2 guys get a huge boost if we have a deep playoff run this year).

Feels like you are judging Bosh pretty harshly considering he only ever had Bryan Colangelo as his GM. And Sam Mitchell/Jay Triano as his coaches.

Bosh did some amazing stuff while he was here. And he had almost nothing around him, not only in terms of supplemental stars but also in terms of players that fit with his game. Those teams were about as poorly constructed as possible. Looking back on those teams compared to what Vince has or what Lowry has now, they are baaaaad. And it's a miracle we ever made the playoffs, and that's all credit to Bosh.

[Uncle_Si]

If Lowry was having this type of season when he was 26 everyone would be saying he's a superstar. Late bloomer in Toronto doesn't get the hype, but this guy is a legit superstar. All around baller.

[A.I]

Bosh was a superstar for us. The guy averaged 24 and 11 in his last season with the Raptors. Sadly, as DanH has already said, we had crappy coaches and a terrible GM. If only Bosh actually had a proper team like the Raptors do now.

[KeonClark]

So I think we're keeping score we've had 3 superstars: Vince bosh and kyle
2 and maybe one day 3rd star: demar AD and jonas
Zero super duper stars (curry lebron durant kobe KG duncan)

[Abbas]

So I think we're keeping score we've had 3 superstars: Vince bosh and kyle
2 and maybe one day 3rd star: demar AD and jonas
Zero super duper stars (curry lebron durant kobe KG duncan)

For me , season wise. i'll rank it like this

Elite Superstar: None (ex. curry,westbrook,lebron,kd)
Just below Elite: Vince, Bosh
Multiple time AllStar: Lowry, Demar
Allstar - Davis and maybe one day jonas

[enlightenment]

Lowry > Bosh.

Bosh never brought toughness, leadership, defence, or playmaking. He did a great job at the end of Calderon PnRs, had a great face-up midrange game in isolation, and was mobile in the fast break. Bosh is a great weapon, but as the focus of a team, he lacks the qualities that elevate the players around him.

[JWash]

Best case I can see is Lowry - Carter - Bosh - DD. But having the best and 4th best franchise players in team history at the same time is pretty great.

Bosh never won anything so imo if DeMar has some deep playoff runs he would pass him (hell I'd argue even 1 is enough). Carter's superstar stats/helping put us on the map makes it tougher for DeMar to eclipse him though unless he were to win like a finals MVP/championship or something of that sort.

Don't get how Bosh would have any sort of stranglehold (you said "best case") though when he literally did nothing here except put up numbers. And I know and recognize that Bosh in Toronto was a better player than DeMar is now (although the gap isn't particularly massive), but when I'm talking about best players in franchise history or franchise greats, things like winning and longevity go a long way there.

[JWash]

If Lowry was having this type of season when he was 26 everyone would be saying he's a superstar. Late bloomer in Toronto doesn't get the hype, but this guy is a legit superstar. All around baller.

Billups effect.

[JWash]

In the eyes of the general fanbase, IF this team does have success going forwards. DeRozan might actually be the one who ends up being viewed as the GOAT Raptor simply because he would have (in this scenario) been here from start to finish. Even moreso the case if he were to win a finals MVP at some point (not unheard of for the "best" player to not win finals MVP, see Dumars, Worthy, Parker, Iguodala, Pierce, etc).

Obviously if you want to crank out WS, impact stats, etc then he wouldn't have a case over Lowry, but generally that's not the way these type of things are looked at.

Who's the greatest Celtic from the big 3 redux era? Most would say Pierce, even though KG was the better player. Just an example.

[KeonClark]

In the eyes of the general fanbase, IF this team does have success going forwards. DeRozan might actually be the one who ends up being viewed as the GOAT Raptor simply because he would have (in this scenario) been here from start to finish. Even moreso the case if he were to win a finals MVP at some point (not unheard of for the "best" player to not win finals MVP, see Dumars, Worthy, Parker, Iguodala, Pierce, etc).

Obviously if you want to crank out WS, impact stats, etc then he wouldn't have a case over Lowry, but generally that's not the way these type of things are looked at.

Who's the greatest Celtic from the big 3 redux era? Most would say Pierce, even though KG was the better player. Just an example.

I'm sure they'll both have banners. God willing, we get a team banner. The really fancy kind.

[DanH]

Bosh never won anything so imo if DeMar has some deep playoff runs he would pass him (hell I'd argue even 1 is enough). Carter's superstar stats/helping put us on the map makes it tougher for DeMar to eclipse him though unless he were to win like a finals MVP/championship or something of that sort.

Don't get how Bosh would have any sort of stranglehold (you said "best case") though when he literally did nothing here except put up numbers. And I know and recognize that Bosh in Toronto was a better player than DeMar is now (although the gap isn't particularly massive), but when I'm talking about best players in franchise history or franchise greats, things like winning and longevity go a long way there.

You don't think Bosh could be the number two guy and win as much as the Raptors have been? DeRozan never won as the number one guy, never got anywhere near the playoffs either. Bosh dragged this garbage team into the playoffs twice. All the team's success with DeMar needs to be attributed first and foremost to Lowry.

Bosh was here for years, was a constant all star presence, and was the best player here. DeRozan has been here for years.