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Is the D-League a Viable Way to Develop Young Players?

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  • JWash wrote: View Post
    Well I'm calling it nitpicky because I feel it is meaningless and wouldn't achieve anything. If I thought it would, then I would've referred to it as detail oriented.
    Ok, guess we can't talk about details unless you feel it's important enough then.

    I guess to answer your thread title, "yes it is" is all you wanted to hear, cause the details are meaningless.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • Apollo wrote: View Post
      One thing people keep missing when comparing the Raptors to those other teams near the top of the standings is that those other teams are better than the Raptors... Arguably A LOT better than the Raptors. The Raptors have needed to play Lowry and DeRozan heavy minutes to get to where they are. Now they're starting to talk and act on give those two guys rest games, which is smart.

      You can't compare the Raptors to the Spurs or Warriors though. Clearly those two teams are a lot better. Better players, better chemistry, better systems, better coaches... The only thing Toronto beats them in is better looking women.
      Part of the reason that the Spurs have been so great is that they develop the end of the bench so that guys can contribute at the end of the season/move up in the rotation the next year.

      We have had plenty of missed opportunities to play young guys. We might have more if we didn't rely on 2 players to create our offence, but even with that offence we are choosing to DNP-CD guys. Last night is another example, Bebe has proven he can play well for us yet gets no minutes. Thompson has been on the team a few weeks, is likely not here next year and yet gets 11 mins. It's all about priorities. Teams like the Spurs make getting guys like Bebe minutes a priority. We don't.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        One thing people keep missing when comparing the Raptors to those other teams near the top of the standings is that those other teams are better than the Raptors... Arguably A LOT better than the Raptors. The Raptors have needed to play Lowry and DeRozan heavy minutes to get to where they are. Now they're starting to talk and act on give those two guys rest games, which is smart.

        You can't compare the Raptors to the Spurs or Warriors though. Clearly those two teams are a lot better. Better players, better chemistry, better systems, better coaches... The only thing Toronto beats them in is better looking women.
        See, you say that the Raptors have needed to play DeMar and Kyle heavy minutes to get where they are, but what evidence do you have that if they had played less minutes, we would have a worse record?

        There are indeed some games where we need to play them heavy minutes - because we put them out there with lineups that don't work and force ourselves to have to put them out there even more with lineups that do to make up the difference, even against bad teams.

        There is absolutely no proof that this minutes distribution is the only way to get this win production out of the team.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          Ok, guess we can't talk about details unless you feel it's important enough then.

          I guess to answer your thread title, "yes it is" is all you wanted to hear, cause the details are meaningless.
          I'm kind of getting tired of you constantly accusing me of having an ulterior motive when I create threads.

          I made it to create a dialogue/debate like anyone else does. Considering the thread grew to 8 pages in less than 2 days, I think that's exactly what I did.

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          • DanH wrote: View Post
            See, you say that the Raptors have needed to play DeMar and Kyle heavy minutes to get where they are, but what evidence do you have that if they had played less minutes, we would have a worse record?

            There are indeed some games where we need to play them heavy minutes - because we put them out there with lineups that don't work and force ourselves to have to put them out there even more with lineups that do to make up the difference, even against bad teams.

            There is absolutely no proof that this minutes distribution is the only way to get this win production out of the team.
            But there is proof that this minutes distribution is working, so as they say why fix it when it ain't broke? In the games where we do take out teams early, Lowry and DD rest and the end of bench guys get a lot of opportunity to play. Look at our point differential though, we don't do that nearly as much as the Spurs or Warriors do.

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            • And the reality is the Raptors already do have some developing players in the regular rotation. Ross, Jonas and even Biz are not finished products yet.

              The Spurs play some of those guys like Kyle Anderson out of necessity because Pop has to pace his stars. Look at some of the old Spurs championship teams and you'll see that their youngest prospects hardly got off the bench because Pop could use the big 3 more.

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              • JWash wrote: View Post
                I'm kind of getting tired of you constantly accusing me of having an ulterior motive when I create threads.

                I made it to create a dialogue/debate like anyone else does. Considering the thread grew to 8 pages in less than 2 days, I think that's exactly what I did.
                And I'm tired of you constantly complaining about other posters. Too negative. Too nit picky. Not important enough to discuss. Yadda yadda yadda. It never ends with you. Dan provides a detailed response exactly on topic and you try to dismiss it because it's too detailed for you. If you want a basic level conversation, then you came to the wrong place.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • The Rebuttal (Checkmate)

                  Axel wrote: View Post
                  Part of the reason that the Spurs have been so great is that they develop the end of the bench so that guys can contribute at the end of the season/move up in the rotation the next year.

                  We have had plenty of missed opportunities to play young guys. We might have more if we didn't rely on 2 players to create our offence, but even with that offence we are choosing to DNP-CD guys. Last night is another example, Bebe has proven he can play well for us yet gets no minutes. Thompson has been on the team a few weeks, is likely not here next year and yet gets 11 mins. It's all about priorities. Teams like the Spurs make getting guys like Bebe minutes a priority. We don't.
                  I said we can't do a fair comparison for various reason and you say we can. The cleanest, the fairest comparison that can be made is to take Pop's first five seasons with the Spurs and compare those to Casey's first five seasons with the Raptors.

                  The reasons for this should be clear. The coaches are on as fair of ground as possible, each coming into a new club, having to establish their own systems and shape the rosters they had to work with. So, when you do this here is what you get:

                  Pop (97-02)
                  Top 2 Players MPG Avg: 36.2 MPG (avg age: 28)
                  Top 5 Players MPG Avg: 31.8 MPG (avg age: 30)
                  Bottom 5 Players MPG Avg: 7.97 MPG (avg age: 28)
                  Roster Avg Age: 29

                  Casey (11-16)
                  Top 2 Players MPG Avg: 35.8 MPG (avg age: 26)
                  Top 5 Players MPG Avg: 31.4 MPG (avg age: 26)
                  Bottom 5 Players MPG Avg: 11.6 MPG (avg age: 26)
                  Roster Avg Age: 26

                  What we see is that Casey is actually using the end of the bench more than Pop was in his first five years. What we see is that Casey is using his two stars less than Pop was. What we see is that Pop and Casey both used the top of their rotations pretty much the same on average.

                  The Spurs spread the minutes out now because they've built a team that's very strong on talent and they have a bunch of aging vets who desperately need breaks and less minutes to hold up throughout the NBA season and beyond. You can't compare the Raptors to the Spurs, they're apples and oranges. Two teams in different phases of life.

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                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    But there is proof that this minutes distribution is working, so as they say why fix it when it ain't broke? In the games where we do take out teams early, Lowry and DD rest and the end of bench guys get a lot of opportunity to play. Look at our point differential though, we don't do that nearly as much as the Spurs or Warriors do.
                    Calling bullshit on the bold.

                    Bebe has played 10+ mins 5 times.

                    Delon once.

                    Even Powell with 9 starts has only hit 10+ mins 12 times.

                    Bebe and Wright are more likely to play 2-3 mins in a blowout. That is not "a lot of opportunity".
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                    • Is the D-League a Viable Way to Develop Young Players?

                      Apollo wrote: View Post
                      I said we can't do a fair comparison for various reason and you say we can. The cleanest, the fairest comparison that can be made is to take Pop's first five seasons with the Spurs and compare those to Casey's first five seasons with the Raptors.

                      The reasons for this should be clear. The coaches are on as fair of ground as possible, each coming into a new club, having to establish their own systems and shape the rosters they had to work with. So, when you do this here is what you get:

                      Pop (97-02)
                      Top 2 Players MPG Avg: 36.2 MPG (avg age: 28)
                      Top 5 Players MPG Avg: 31.8 MPG (avg age: 30)
                      Bottom 5 Players MPG Avg: 7.97 MPG (avg age: 28)
                      Roster Avg Age: 29

                      Casey (11-16)
                      Top 2 Players MPG Avg: 35.8 MPG (avg age: 26)
                      Top 5 Players MPG Avg: 31.4 MPG (avg age: 26)
                      Bottom 5 Players MPG Avg: 11.6 MPG (avg age: 26)
                      Roster Avg Age: 26
                      League wide minutes distribution is vastly different today than in '97 though. Top players play less now than they used to, so not sure that comp really works.

                      Boil it down to the simplest form (to remove variables not captured), in games where JV got hurt, and Biyombo and Bebe are the only Cs on the team, why does Bebe rarely play? That is a big problem to me when Bebe is most likely to be our backup C next year while Biyombo plays elsewhere.
                      Last edited by Axel; Fri Mar 18th, 2016, 09:09 AM.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                      Comment


                      • It works a lot better than what you're trying to do. Of course the Spurs spread it out, they have to Axel. Pop is managing his specific team needs. His specific team is a lot different looking than the Raptors. His team is old in terms of the leadership, the key cogs to the machine, whereas the Raptors are young.

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                        • Is the D-League a Viable Way to Develop Young Players?

                          Apollo wrote: View Post
                          It works a lot better than what you're trying to do. Of course the Spurs spread it out, they have to Axel. Pop is managing his specific team needs. His specific team is a lot different looking than the Raptors. His team is old in terms of the leadership, the key cogs to the machine, whereas the Raptors are young.
                          I didn't ask about the Spurs, my question is very simple. When JV is out, Bebe rarely plays. Do you not see that as an issue?

                          Also the Spurs don't need to spread it out as much as they do. They won a title with 30mpg tops, their guys aren't geriatric - they could have played more but they chose not to. Their reasoning is two fold - one for rest/pace (although they sit guys for rest as much as limit minutes) and two to develop guys.
                          Last edited by Axel; Fri Mar 18th, 2016, 09:16 AM.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                          Comment


                          • Axel wrote: View Post
                            League wide minutes distribution is vastly different today than in '97 though. Top players play less now than they used to, so not sure that comp really works.

                            Boil it down to the simplest form (to remove variables not captured), in games where JV got hurt, and Biyombo and Bebe are the only Cs on the team, why does Bebe rarely play? That is a big problem to me when Bebe is most likely to be our backup C next year while Biyombo plays elsewhere.
                            I agree with you. I'd expect Bebe to get more minutes under these circumstance than he has. But we don't have much of an idea of what the organizations plans for Bebe. For all we know, they have no intentions of keeping him. It's a safe assumption to make that he would slide into the backup C role next season, and I'd be fine with that, given he is under contract and Biz looks due for a raise we cannot afford, but that's all it is...an assumption, no?

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                            • Apollo wrote: View Post
                              I said we can't do a fair comparison for various reason and you say we can. The cleanest, the fairest comparison that can be made is to take Pop's first five seasons with the Spurs and compare those to Casey's first five seasons with the Raptors.

                              The reasons for this should be clear. The coaches are on as fair of ground as possible, each coming into a new club, having to establish their own systems and shape the rosters they had to work with. So, when you do this here is what you get:

                              Pop (97-02)
                              Top 2 Players MPG Avg: 36.2 MPG (avg age: 28)
                              Top 5 Players MPG Avg: 31.8 MPG (avg age: 30)
                              Bottom 5 Players MPG Avg: 7.97 MPG (avg age: 28)
                              Roster Avg Age: 29

                              Casey (11-16)
                              Top 2 Players MPG Avg: 35.8 MPG (avg age: 26)
                              Top 5 Players MPG Avg: 31.4 MPG (avg age: 26)
                              Bottom 5 Players MPG Avg: 11.6 MPG (avg age: 26)
                              Roster Avg Age: 26

                              What we see is that Casey is actually using the end of the bench more than Pop was in his first five years. What we see is that Casey is using his two stars less than Pop was. What we see is that Pop and Casey both used the top of their rotations pretty much the same on average.

                              The Spurs spread the minutes out now because they've built a team that's very strong on talent and they have a bunch of aging vets who desperately need breaks and less minutes to hold up throughout the NBA season and beyond. You can't compare the Raptors to the Spurs, they're apples and oranges. Two teams in different phases of life.
                              There's one big difference I can see in that period between the Spurs and Raptors with regards to opportunities to develop...

                              http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

                              Their developing stud center led the team in usage and minutes. Ours plays less than 26 minutes per night, and barely gets 20% usage.

                              People keep claiming that JV and Ross are examples of Casey developing young talent, I'd argue both of them have still been woefully underused because Casey has pinned the hopes of the organization on two players, and two players alone.
                              twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                              • JawsGT wrote: View Post
                                I agree with you. I'd expect Bebe to get more minutes under these circumstance than he has. But we don't have much of an idea of what the organizations plans for Bebe. For all we know, they have no intentions of keeping him. It's a safe assumption to make that he would slide into the backup C role next season, and I'd be fine with that, given he is under contract and Biz looks due for a raise we cannot afford, but that's all it is...an assumption, no?
                                Whether we plan to keep him or trade him, he is the only player under contract and would be to our benefit to develop him or showcase him on the court though. He may not be the backup but there is no reason for him not to get those minutes behind Biyombo. He has proven he can play well, so it's not sacrificing anything.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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