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Is the D-League a Viable Way to Develop Young Players?

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  • Apollo
    replied
    Fully wrote: View Post
    Ross played 17 mpg as a rookie under Casey. JV played 24 mpg as a rook. Ed Davis played 24 a night in his first season. Even someone like Quincy Acy got some run as a second rounder. I'm sure there are plenty of posters who would argue that those players should gotten even more time than they did, but I don't really think you can claim there's a pattern of Casey refusing to play young guys at all like what is happening with Bebe.
    Most of the players Casey has to work with are young guys... There's no greater tough love than "you want minutes? Earn them".

    Leave a comment:


  • Axel
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Edit: I'd hate to be cheering for a team that plays people based on their DOB and contract length rather than focusing on winning when they have a pretty decent team. I know because I cheered for a team like that for too many years. They wore purple for a while and then changed to red, it was still the same stink though.
    And it's not about DOB, but ensuring that the guys who aren't getting much PT get enough so that they are ready and capable of helping the team in case of emergency.

    If we had a bunch of old vets, they just need to stay healthy. Young guys need to get better (and stay healthy).

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  • ogi
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Casey's judgement had Salmons playing when all evidence suggested otherwise.

    Casey's judgement has Scola starting and playing all of his minutes with the starters, despite strong evidence against that.

    Casey's judgement was to play Hansbrough on Pierce in the playoffs over JJ.

    Questioning Casey's judgement is more than fair.
    Yet we have the rookie Norman Powell taking jjs minutes

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Or he was brought in because Scola is the worst starting PF in the league.

    Since Scola and JT play PF and Bebe is a C, that would be more logical.
    DanH wrote: View Post
    I'm pretty sure Thompson was thought to be a PF sub considering the declining play of Scola throughout the year and considering he replaced Bennett on the roster. Not an additional third string C when we had two healthy young C's either of which can handle a minutes increase if need be.
    He's darn near seven foot, 250 pounds and played both power forward and center all his career... He's bigger, stronger than Bebe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Axel
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Its not just Casey though. Ujiri went out and got Casey another guy to play instead of Bebe. Everything points to this being Bebe's problem, not the coaching staff's problem.

    Edit: I'd hate to be cheering for a team that plays people because based on their DOB and contract length rather than focusing on winning when they have a pretty decent team. I know because I cheered for a team like that for too many years. They wore purple for a while and then changed to red, it was still the same stink though.
    Or he was brought in because Scola is the worst starting PF in the league.

    Since Scola and JT play PF and Bebe is a C, that would be more logical.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fully
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Because this isn't just Bebe or this season. It's a different chapter in the same story under Casey for the last few years.

    If this was simply a Bebe thing, then I'd be more willing to suspect those external factors we can't confirm, but this is a much larger pattern than that.
    Ross played 17 mpg as a rookie under Casey. JV played 24 mpg as a rook. Ed Davis played 24 a night in his first season. Even someone like Quincy Acy got some run as a second rounder. I'm sure there are plenty of posters who would argue that those players should gotten even more time than they did, but I don't really think you can claim there's a pattern of Casey refusing to play young guys at all like what is happening with Bebe.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Its not just Casey though. Ujiri went out and got Casey another guy to play instead of Bebe.
    I'm pretty sure Thompson was thought to be a PF sub considering the declining play of Scola throughout the year and considering he replaced Bennett on the roster. Not an additional third string C when we had two healthy young C's either of which can handle a minutes increase if need be.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Because this isn't just Bebe or this season. It's a different chapter in the same story under Casey for the last few years.

    If this was simply a Bebe thing, then I'd be more willing to suspect those external factors we can't confirm, but this is a much larger pattern than that.
    Its not just Casey though. Ujiri went out and got Casey another guy to play instead of Bebe. Everything points to this being Bebe's problem, not the coaching staff's problem.

    Edit: I'd hate to be cheering for a team that plays people based on their DOB and contract length rather than focusing on winning when they have a pretty decent team. I know because I cheered for a team like that for too many years. They wore purple for a while and then changed to red, it was still the same stink though.
    Last edited by Apollo; Fri Mar 18, 2016, 01:14 PM. Reason: .

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  • Axel
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post
    I still remember when many here were up in arms about Casey not giving JJ any minutes last season. This season due to injuries he gets his chance and now many of the same people are talking about how bad JJ is. Perhaps as Apollo is saying the same can be said about Bebe. More importantly, Casey has much more access to where Bebe's game is compared to any of us, so maybe have a bit more faith in Casey/MU's judgement.
    Casey's judgement had Salmons playing when all evidence suggested otherwise.

    Casey's judgement has Scola starting and playing all of his minutes with the starters, despite strong evidence against that.

    Casey's judgement was to play Hansbrough on Pierce in the playoffs over JJ.

    Questioning Casey's judgement is more than fair.

    Leave a comment:


  • LJ2
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Because this isn't just Bebe or this season. It's a different chapter in the same story under Casey for the last few years.

    If this was simply a Bebe thing, then I'd be more willing to suspect those external factors we can't confirm, but this is a much larger pattern than that.
    I still remember when many here were up in arms about Casey not giving JJ any minutes last season. This season due to injuries he gets his chance and now many of the same people are talking about how bad JJ is. Perhaps as Apollo is saying the same can be said about Bebe. More importantly, Casey has much more access to where Bebe's game is compared to any of us, so maybe have a bit more faith in Casey/MU's judgement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Axel
    replied
    jimmie wrote: View Post
    I'm not suggesting Pop or Spo are wrong at all, or that they should or shouldn't hold more weight than Casey. My point is that you're using something they've ostensibly said (what exactly did they say that supports your point, anyway? you didn't share specifics) to support your opinion that Casey's rotations and player development suck.

    If you're going to do that, you also have to put some weight behind what those guys say, and what other "experts" say, about how Casey does his job, how Ujiri does his job, and how the Raptors have developed under those guys the past few years. Around the league, there's a lot of praise and positivity. Here, it's ignored.

    And you don't have any evidence. You have stats. Evidence is more than just numbers in isolation.

    The problem with "stats" and "theories" is that it's all you and I have. Some stats, some theories. The truth lies between, and those with ALL the info (coaches, players, GMs) are much more likely to get closer to the truth than those with VERY LITTLE of the info (us) and very little actual experience with which to analyse the info in context and arrive and close-to-correct conclusions.

    Again, I've got no problem with speculation, but you tend to treat people who speculate in another direction with derision, as if their refusal to base the entirety of their opinion on the stats available on analytics websites renders their opinion somehow less than yours. That ain't right.
    If you want specific quotes, go read the "Managing Minutes..." thread, as they can be found there.

    What sources are you using for "praising" us? Most media are really bias, and many outlets who have no incentive to be bias don't say boo about us. So you'll need to be more specific if you want a response to that.

    Stats are a form of evidence. I can 100% unequivocally say how many minutes players are getting. I can compare those minutes to use and the circumstances (like JVs injury). The idea that Bebe is somehow being held out for effort, attitude, etc is based on the minutes and not anything else. If it were a one off thing, maybe you put faith in the coach having good reason, but we've seen this before, so it's much less plausible for all of those situations being the players problem. So yes, I dismiss those theories because they have no basis in evidence and become less plausible in year 5 of the same story.

    Leave a comment:


  • LJ2
    replied
    Barolt wrote: View Post
    There's basically no statistical comparison between DeRozan and Jordan that doesn't make DeMar look awful. There is a statistical comparison between JV and Duncan that doesn't make JV look awful. That alone says a lot.
    DD's role is probably much closer to Jordan's than JV's to Duncan's though, I think. Not sure, how that skews the stats.

    Leave a comment:


  • LJ2
    replied
    Haven't read the last couple of pages folks, but enjoying the insult free debate. Good stuff all around

    Leave a comment:


  • LJ2
    replied
    Barolt wrote: View Post
    There's one big difference I can see in that period between the Spurs and Raptors with regards to opportunities to develop...

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

    Their developing stud center led the team in usage and minutes. Ours plays less than 26 minutes per night, and barely gets 20% usage.

    People keep claiming that JV and Ross are examples of Casey developing young talent, I'd argue both of them have still been woefully underused because Casey has pinned the hopes of the organization on two players, and two players alone.
    I was really enjoying the back and fourth on this debate until Duncan's name appeared..now I'm not sure I want to read the next two pages. Sigh...into bizzaro world we go!!

    Leave a comment:


  • jimmie
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Haha so the words of Pop/Spo isn't supposed to carry more weight than Casey, yet we aren't allowed to use anything to Spurs do as comparison because they are so great. Smh

    What context am I ignoring? There is zero evidence, just unsupported theories.
    I'm not suggesting Pop or Spo are wrong at all, or that they should or shouldn't hold more weight than Casey. My point is that you're using something they've ostensibly said (what exactly did they say that supports your point, anyway? you didn't share specifics) to support your opinion that Casey's rotations and player development suck.

    If you're going to do that, you also have to put some weight behind what those guys say, and what other "experts" say, about how Casey does his job, how Ujiri does his job, and how the Raptors have developed under those guys the past few years. Around the league, there's a lot of praise and positivity. Here, it's ignored.

    And you don't have any evidence. You have stats. Evidence is more than just numbers in isolation.

    The problem with "stats" and "theories" is that it's all you and I have. Some stats, some theories. The truth lies between, and those with ALL the info (coaches, players, GMs) are much more likely to get closer to the truth than those with VERY LITTLE of the info (us) and very little actual experience with which to analyse the info in context and arrive and close-to-correct conclusions.

    Again, I've got no problem with speculation, but you tend to treat people who speculate in another direction with derision, as if their refusal to base the entirety of their opinion on the stats available on analytics websites renders their opinion somehow less than yours. That ain't right.

    Leave a comment:

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