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Is the D-League a Viable Way to Develop Young Players?

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  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    Of course it is. Combine it with practicing and a few minutes with the Big team and you have a decent recipe for success. Is it as rapid as force-feeding youngsters on a shitty team? Maybe not, but I'd rather have the good team.

    Hopefully we can get even better as an organization and afford to work youngsters into consistent minutes like Pop, but people forget that Pop's team is almost always veteran-laden while ours has been relatively young.
    Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Wed Mar 16, 2016, 10:58 PM.

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  • Scraptor
    replied
    To your points OP:

    everyone was so excited about it.... now... people are up in arms about guys not getting significant minutes with the main roster?
    Not everyone thought it was going to be a panacea. I am almost certain that the same people who were lukewarm on its significance when it was announced are the same people who are lukewarm on its significance now.

    I just don't really get this idea of trying to force a bunch of young guys into the rotation that aren't needed at present.
    The idea has nothing to do with the present. It has to do with the future.

    consider that it does in fact WORK in other sports.
    The main problem is that the D-League is not remotely as organized or competitive as other developmental leagues.

    Superagent Arn Tellem published an excellent piece on the problems with the D-league about a year ago.
    http://grantland.com/the-triangle/d-...s-farm-system/

    Player development remains the NBA’s biggest weakness. Rather than nurture so-called homegrown talent, the NBA outsources nearly all of its minor leagues to college basketball and Europe. In theory, the NBA’s own Development League was designed to function as a sort of R&D lab for players too green for showtime. That’s not how it played out. The D-League became the League of Last Resort for players who failed to make any NBA roster.
    Over the last two years, 40 percent of the NBA’s second-round draft picks never actually signed NBA rookie contracts. Thirty-eight percent of those 60 players went overseas; only 8 percent wound up in the D-League.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that having a D-league team is not beneficial. It is. But I think the benefits of being on the D-league squad are minimal compared to other sports' developmental leagues and to actual NBA game experience.

    The NBA is simply on a different level in terms of speed and competition, and there is no substitute for minutes on that level. You don't learn or develop from middling competition, you learn through adversity and challenge. That simply isn't there in the D-league. Not yet.

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  • OldSkoolCool
    replied
    JawsGT wrote: View Post
    I'm curious about this too. I haven't followed the Dleague team closely though. But I wonder sometimes if you want to put some of these guys, especially the ones you have under contract, in different situations, putting the ball in their hands more or whatever, just to see what you got and what they may be able to do in those situations.

    But I like the idea of having a DLeague team. I wish it was more like the NHL though, but it is what it is, and that's a start like you said, even for the league itself as more NBA teams get on board. It really benefits a guy like Bruno, a total project, and who never got a sniff of the NCAA. Powell and Wright and Bebe are certainly more NBA ready right now. But it's hard to find these guys consistent minutes with the Raps, so playing them with the 905 as much as possible seems like a good idea. Unfortunate though, that they haven't played as much with either team, but I can understand them not getting much time with the Raps.

    But I also really like the way our roster is constructed, having those 4 young guys at the back end of the roster. I figured at the beginning of the season they wouldn't see much of the floor, but it's a smart idea I think to structure that way. You always have assets on value contracts with "potential" to sweeten any deals, plus you got guys on value contracts to fill bench roles in the event you trade rotation players down the line to upgrade the roster. I think this is important for cap management, especially considering that good starting units cost so much. And I'd much rather have rookies and sophomores at the end of the bench then vets.
    What you highlighted from my post was mostly concerning Bruno. In the NBA, I see him being most success playing off ball as a spot up shooter, and a threat to cut back door...yet we often see him dribble drive attacking in the DL. We aren't developing his off-ball skills in such a way that will benefit him when he steps onto the big court. It just isn't his game to dribble and attack like that. He would be best if we taught him foot work for coming off of screens for a quick shot, when to cut, how to cut, etc. Not dribble drive kickouts.

    Maybe I'm wrong in that I think Bruno's development should work in -simplified- goals

    1) Defense
    2) defense and the occasional three
    2) better defense and a consistent three point threat
    3) great defense and a three point sharp shooter
    4) elite defense, a three point sharp shooter, and the ability to handle

    Whereas we seem to be focusing on screen and roll action and dribble drive kickouts, as well as shooting. Seems to be a convoluted goal oriented system. I don't see much emphasis on defense either from our DL team.

    Contrary to Bruno, Wright and Powell are players whose game is better suited to that dribble drive skills. So they are put into spots that can translate to the NBA, and has likely improved their games wrt to the NBA, though we haven't seen enough of them to tell for sure. Remember, Powell and Wright both lit up the summer league, so these guys had a good base to begin with.

    As for Bebe, we massively under utilize him. At least between him and JV we are consistent at under utilizing our starting centers

    As for rookies vs vets. Yes, yes please. Vets historically kill basketball teams by capping them out whilst depleting talent.

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  • JawsGT
    replied
    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Holistically, absolutely 100% agree

    Yet, for the Raptors, I 100% disagree at the moment

    What I have seen of our DL team is players put into positions different to what they would play in the NBA. So for developing NBA talent, it isn't going to work so much.

    This is most likely due to it being the first year of operation, and will take time to develop a better system, but I don't like what I have seen this year
    I'm curious about this too. I haven't followed the Dleague team closely though. But I wonder sometimes if you want to put some of these guys, especially the ones you have under contract, in different situations, putting the ball in their hands more or whatever, just to see what you got and what they may be able to do in those situations.

    But I like the idea of having a DLeague team. I wish it was more like the NHL though, but it is what it is, and that's a start like you said, even for the league itself as more NBA teams get on board. It really benefits a guy like Bruno, a total project, and who never got a sniff of the NCAA. Powell and Wright and Bebe are certainly more NBA ready right now. But it's hard to find these guys consistent minutes with the Raps, so playing them with the 905 as much as possible seems like a good idea. Unfortunate though, that they haven't played as much with either team, but I can understand them not getting much time with the Raps.

    But I also really like the way our roster is constructed, having those 4 young guys at the back end of the roster. I figured at the beginning of the season they wouldn't see much of the floor, but it's a smart idea I think to structure that way. You always have assets on value contracts with "potential" to sweeten any deals, plus you got guys on value contracts to fill bench roles in the event you trade rotation players down the line to upgrade the roster. I think this is important for cap management, especially considering that good starting units cost so much. And I'd much rather have rookies and sophomores at the end of the bench then vets.

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  • KeonClark
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Yes. To a point. Ultimately, they will reach a plateau where their skills won't be honed much until they go against better competition. But at first? Absolutely. You can even see it with Powell - even with his D-League experience, that first stretch of games as a starter were kind of rough for him. Has grown by leaps and bounds since.
    I agree. I think a guy like bruno can develop for another year after this. Powell and Wright need end of rotation minutes next year or else dealt somewhwere else, as with most American ncaa draftees, one year tops

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  • DanH
    replied
    Yes. To a point. Ultimately, they will reach a plateau where their skills won't be honed much until they go against better competition. But at first? Absolutely. You can even see it with Powell - even with his D-League experience, that first stretch of games as a starter were kind of rough for him. Has grown by leaps and bounds since.

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  • DogeLover1234
    replied
    If the question is does the D-league help, then absolutely. Consider that Wright, Powell, Bruno and Bebe would be getting no more minutes than what they get already for the raps without the 905s. I would agree that we could use the 905s better, but it is playing a positive role I would say. As much as anything, it is there so that over the course of the season, Wright and Powell can go and build confidence, so that if they actually play for the Raps, they are ready.

    Not really related, but if we do end up keeping DD and landing another "star" free agent, like most people hope, these guys could be playing many more minutes next year.

    I feel like Wright could start for the Knicks, its a shame that he just cant get minutes behind Cojo and Lowry.
    Last edited by DogeLover1234; Wed Mar 16, 2016, 08:59 PM.

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  • OldSkoolCool
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    For comparison's sake

    last year, Kyle Anderson played 1042 DL and 358 NBA minutes. Literally doubling any of our guys in on court time.

    Now I know that people hate Spurs comps, so how about a random one. Bryce Dejean-Jones of the Pelicans has logged 561 minutes between DL and NBA this year as an undrafted free agent who has missed the last 3 weeks with a broken wrist.

    D-League can be a great tool but every DNP-CD means that we aren't using it properly.
    Especially since our teams are so close.

    Heard plenty of stories of guys playing DL and NBA in the same day, something I find impossible to see happening with our group

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  • KeonClark
    replied
    Well, strictly from a raptors perspective, it's going to take at least a year or 2 until we see if management and coaching are using the right approach for the youngsters with d league minutes. But for a VERY early report card:
    -Powell looks to be developing well. VERY nice draft pick, and has played great in the d league which I would venture is helping his newfound nba confidence.
    -wright sits on the bench a lot but he's learning from 2 great point guards. He's played good in the league but not dominant enough to go omg get this man minutes. Time will tell if 20th overall becomes a solid rotation player, what can ya do
    -bebe has played d league this year and last and when he's gotten spot duty in the nba, usually looks ready. Decent chance he gets a look as raptors backup center next year so we'll see if it helped
    -bruno is getting better with each passing month, I fully expect him to be I the d league for a lot of next year too, by then the goal should be dominating a lot of games down there and standing out

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  • Axel
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Biggest issue I have is that the players in question (Powell, Wright, Bebe) aren't actually playing in the D-League all that much.

    Bebe has played 10 games. Powell 8. Wright 15.

    So in total court time, Powell and Bebe are actually ranked 13th and 14th on the 905s at 317 and 250 minutes. Wright is 7th with 536 minutes.

    With the Raps, Wright has 18 games for 78 mins (bringing his combined season total to 714 mp). Bebe has 152 mins in 22 games (for a combined 402 mp). Powell has 269 in 33 NBA games (for a combined 586).

    That means there are 20 NBA rookies with more NBA minutes than Wright has combined minutes. 25 ahead of Powell and 29 ahead of Bebe (again, comparing to rookies just NBA minutes).

    The D League is great, but when these guys are called up and getting DNP-CDs, it doesn't help as much as it could.
    For comparison's sake

    last year, Kyle Anderson played 1042 DL and 358 NBA minutes. Literally doubling any of our guys in on court time.

    Now I know that people hate Spurs comps, so how about a random one. Bryce Dejean-Jones of the Pelicans has logged 561 minutes between DL and NBA this year as an undrafted free agent who has missed the last 3 weeks with a broken wrist.

    D-League can be a great tool but every DNP-CD means that we aren't using it properly.

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  • tDotted
    replied
    Can't just develop someone exclusively through the D-League. NBA minutes are absolutely necessary.

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  • Barolt
    replied
    The value of the D-League depends on what an individual player needs. If the player needs to develop physical skills, the D-League is great for that. On court time, shooting at game pace, etc.

    If you need to develop time in the systems and chemistry with NBA teammates, the D-League isn't sufficient. Ideally, you want a mix. D-League for physical skills, and time with the NBA club for chemistry and systems.

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  • Puffer
    replied
    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Holistically, absolutely 100% agree

    Yet, for the Raptors, I 100% disagree at the moment

    What I have seen of our DL team is players put into positions different to what they would play in the NBA. So for developing NBA talent, it isn't going to work so much.

    This is most likely due to it being the first year of operation, and will take time to develop a better system, but I don't like what I have seen this year
    I agree to the extent that if they are playing in the D-League out of their natural position, it will be a detriment to them when they come up to the big team, but I think the greater issue is playing time. Learning what to do when you are a weak side defender, or how to deal with a double team etc. are pretty much transferable to any position.

    I agree that if what you are describing is what happens (I haven't seen enough 905 ball to know) then it definitely isn't optimum.

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  • OldSkoolCool
    replied
    JWash wrote: View Post
    Payers can still develop and gain valuable experience playing in the D-League
    Holistically, absolutely 100% agree

    Yet, for the Raptors, I 100% disagree at the moment

    What I have seen of our DL team is players put into positions different to what they would play in the NBA. So for developing NBA talent, it isn't going to work so much.

    This is most likely due to it being the first year of operation, and will take time to develop a better system, but I don't like what I have seen this year

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  • Puffer
    replied
    The most important part of a young player's development, after coaching and the will to put in the hard work during practice, is playing time. No player becomes a star by consciously thinking about what he/she is doing on the court. They need to be exposed to game situations enough that they can automatically recognize certain situations/patterns and then automatically respond to them with the correct play. You practice the plays/reactions in practice. You integrate them in game situations.

    D-League, or something similar, is critical for young players. Transcendent talents with tons of physical ability get tons of hours while very young through being selected to rep teams, by becoming starters for their respective age appropriate (or even higher) teams, and by logging heavy minutes for every team they play on. They get special coaching, are asked to participate in tournaments etc. The higher the level of play, the better. Stashing a player on a Euroleague team used to be one way to do it...but sticking them on a D-League team where they learn under your coaches and use your system is bound to let them play on their NBA team more than virtually anything else.

    Seriously, if they are great when they are drafted, they are playing with the big boys right from the start. But if they can't crack the rotation, give them 25-30 minutes a night in the 50 game D-League season. Best Thing Ever.

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