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Hedo's Story From One of His Fans

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  • #16
    @ Vellassco

    I think you seem to believe that some other members of the Raptor org. have gotten a less of a blowback re this disappointing season than Turkoglu. If so, you have not hung around this site too long. There has been ample arrows slung at all manner of members of the team, coaching staff and Colangelo....and yes, even the media.

    Turk may get a bit more because so much was expected. And it wasnt the talent deficit but the terrible recognition later in the season that he was just not showing up to play. Whatever the reason (coaching or certain team personnel) that is a terrible workplace response over an extended period of time which degraded ultimately overall team performance. The excuse used that he starts slow or he needs to be the focal point of attack is just bs in my view. He is a veteran who should be able to adapt to at least some of the new team members and their skills. Also, h e is now over 30 yrs. old and he needs to take better care of his body if he wants to remain an elite athlete (eg. Ray Allen). I dont think he did this...do you? Towards the end of the season he had 19 rebounds in a game...wonder why this was not possible occasionally during other games in the season (yes I know Bosh was not playing). You blame Triano for his bad coaching....but yet his bad coaching included playing Turk (and other players when they played badly and without defensive intensity). Was it ok then?

    All to say, Turk is as much to blame for this season as anyone else on the team. Try not to give him too much of a pass. I was a supporter of his signing and will be again when he puts out on the floor next season....consistently. Everyone is entitled to have bad games/nights...no one is allowed to slack off anytime.

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    • #17
      @Bendit

      I'm making a statement here in order to focus on "heart" instead of on "hairs". After that We may come conclusion at corrective actions. (I'll try to keep it simple as far as i can. Someone can drag it as a new thread topic)

      Toronto Raptors is out Playoffs now right?. So, This (just itself) shows one or multiple problems exist in the position right? Ok, Now lets approach the situation just like todays' successful companies do (MLSE is a company too, right?). Ok, lets pick one of the problem solving methods. Root Cause Analysis or Priority Analysis?. Ok, I pick Root Cause Analysis. Now, we should pick one of the techniques amongst RCA's (there are lots of them: Failure mode and effects analysis (FMEA), Fault tree analysis, 5 Whys, Pareto analysis... etc). Ok I pick Pareto Analysis.

      Here is what i found from Wikipedia for you:
      Pareto analysis is a statistical technique in decision making that is used for selection of a limited number of tasks that produce significant overall effect. It uses the Pareto principle – the idea that by doing 20% of work you can generate 80% of the advantage of doing the entire job. Or in terms of quality improvement, a large majority of problems (80%) are produced by a few key causes (20%).

      Here are the steps:

      * Step 1: Form a table listing the causes and their frequency as a percentage.
      * Step 2: Arrange the rows in the decreasing order of importance of the causes (i.e, the most important cause first)
      * Step 3: Add a cumulative percentage column to the table
      * Step 4: Plot with causes on x- and cumulative percentage on y-axis
      * Step 5: Join the above points to form a curve
      * Step 6: Plot (on the same graph) a bar graph with causes on x- and percent frequency on y-axis
      * Step 7: Draw line at 80% on y-axis parallel to x-axis. Then drop the line at the point of intersection with the curve on x-axis. This point on the x-axis separates the important causes (on the left) and trivial causes (on the right)
      * Step 8: Review the chart to ensure you are capturing at least 80% of the causes


      Ok, Lets start Step 1 and list them. I'm waiting all Board Members' contributions to this 'problems' carnival. (this will turn a entertaining game in close future , believe me)

      Here is mines: (which come on my mind atm without in order)

      - Throwing 9 new spare parts to table and expecting them to be compatible with each others. (Btw, This one seems general failure of Canadian Basketball i guess, every two year this was repeating huh)
      - No certainty on players' roles within Triano's System. ( some nights Jack was turning to a "Hero" and i thought he was gonna die during his never ending drives while the others just standing and watching him; some nights Bosh turns to jumpshot machine and kill all others momentum... etc etc)
      - Lack of "Alpha Dog" on locker room. (Jack? Jose? Bosh? who is he? who could talk on someones face when the accountability was a issue?)
      .
      .
      .
      ill add to this list later on.





      When we came to Step 2, we will be asking ourself why and identify the true root cause associated with the defined problem.

      I'll make all the rest 6 steps on behalf of you, don't worry for them.

      Note:
      In current situation, whenever you ask to somebody around NBA like : what comes your mind when Toronto and their failures They most likely say (thanks to your media and to your high expectations) > Defense and Turkoglu. right? In case of your media decide to write an article about it I bet they will be certainly putting one of the Turkoglu's pictures ( from silly looking portraits with mask on his face) at top of their articles.

      I'm curious where will Hedo and his struggles show itself at the end of this Root Cause Analysis. Really...

      BTW I ate my words Miller was great. Kodos to him. Sorry for Nash.
      Last edited by Vellassco; Mon Apr 19th, 2010, 01:40 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        @ Vellassco

        "In current situation, whenever you ask to somebody around NBA like : what comes your mind when Toronto and their failures They most likely say (thanks to your media and to your high expectations) > Defense and Turkoglu. right?"

        My reaction to describe the main causes of failure in 2 words has always been "defense" (incl. effort)and "coaching"...not so much individual players. I do believe that there is an unemployed coach out there who would have got more out of the team than Triano. So I disagree with your premise. And believe me when I write that apart from RR and other US based publications I do not follow basketball thru the local media (they are hockey and possibly baseball pseudo experts.. first...and they were assigned the basketball beat).

        I saw the beginning of the Port. game and saw that Miller was playing well...he even stole a ball from Nash ! Not to rub it in or compare because they play diff. positions but Miller is a good example of someone who adapted his game in Portland. There were big questions about his "fit" there both by himself and even Roy. Now he is running that team. I am the first to agree that at this level basketball can turn around just as much by subtraction as by addition (no Roy, no Oden). I would not be surprised that if Bosh left this team with better coaching and possibly a good wing and a interior presence for defense/shot blocking could do much better.

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        • #19
          Vellassco , STOP glorifying Hedo , who cares how he played 2,3,5 10 years ago , this past season was terrible for the entire team with some exceptions and Hedo wasnt one of them ( sadly) , such a big hope turn into s..t , this guy was the biggest dissapointment in my opinion , zero defensive skills , his offence was like lottery you just never knew how many points he is going to score ...5 or 9 or 12 on very good day ,but when he came here hopes where for more like 18-22 PPG , he reminded me of V.C. cry baby this past season. Anyways I do hope that he starts playing BBall with some BALLS next season along with Bargniani and Bosh or he will become like V.C. is to Toronto this days.
          Cheers!

          Comment


          • #20
            I must admit, I never liked Hedo, although I agree that he can be a very good player when he wants. And I don't like the Hedo because of the way he looks or not necessary because he didn't try enough this season to help Raptors. He is just in that category of players that I don't like: Manu Ginobili, Chris Bowen, Varajeo, Kevin Garnett and so on. All of these players are not necessary bad players, some of them are even great with championship rings and probably future HOF. Is just their way of playing, doing whatever it takes to kill the beauty of the game: throwing elbows to head, flip-flops, permanent complaining to officials. On my books, Hedo is in this category for his driving thru defense regardless if is possible or not just flip the ball and then always complain to the officials (2 FT if he misses or 1FT for continuation) not to mention the offensive charge. My worst nightmare regarding Raptors is if CB4 leaves Raptors and the Raptors game will became "give the ball to Hedo and get out of his way, let him bully his way to basket".

            So, please convince your darling Hedo to give up the money in Toronto and get the hell out of town! Grrrr .... the pizza is on me

            Comment


            • #21
              heavyweightt wrote: View Post
              Vellassco , STOP glorifying Hedo ,
              Sorry couldn't... I'm a fan... looking different angle... if its giving you pain to hear something from different tone and if you would like to be in a bipolar environment then all i can say good luck!

              who cares how he played 2,3,5 10 years ago
              Sorry but it was just 2 weeks ago( not even years) before he signed here.

              this past season was terrible for the entire team with some exceptions and Hedo wasnt one of them ( sadly) , such a big hope turn into s..t , this guy was the biggest dissapointment in my opinion
              I'm presuming you were the same guy and saying same things when team was hitting 30 wins (no Calderon dayz) prior All-star game and giving high hopes for future on both side of the floor, right? good

              zero defensive skills , his offence was like lottery you just never knew how many points he is going to score ...5 or 9 or 12 on very good day ,but when he came here hopes where for more like 18-22 PPG
              Well, thats good if your basketball knowledge is limited with per game stats. Basketball is bit more complicated than your imagination, dude.
              Btw sorry but when your franchise player and your "project" player were the focal point of offense and taking total 44 shoots per game there were no space for another 22 PPG player in your coaches plan


              he reminded me of V.C. cry baby this past season. Anyways I do hope that he starts playing BBall with some BALLS next season along with Bargniani and Bosh or he will become like V.C. is to Toronto this days.
              Believe or not but he has no any previous record for being cry baby before he joined Raptors. May be thats may say something to you. May be just Torontos' cold weather huh. Money? nah. He was 7 mil/year guy. 7 million its easy to say, hard to count. Exactly due to "COLD" weather!
              Cheers!
              Last edited by Vellassco; Tue Apr 20th, 2010, 03:10 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                insight_tor wrote: View Post
                I must admit, I never liked Hedo, although I agree that he can be a very good player when he wants. And I don't like the Hedo because of the way he looks or not necessary because he didn't try enough this season to help Raptors. He is just in that category of players that I don't like: Manu Ginobili, Chris Bowen, Varajeo, Kevin Garnett and so on. All of these players are not necessary bad players, some of them are even great with championship rings and probably future HOF. Is just their way of playing, doing whatever it takes to kill the beauty of the game: throwing elbows to head, flip-flops, permanent complaining to officials. On my books, Hedo is in this category for his driving thru defense regardless if is possible or not just flip the ball and then always complain to the officials (2 FT if he misses or 1FT for continuation) not to mention the offensive charge. My worst nightmare regarding Raptors is if CB4 leaves Raptors and the Raptors game will became "give the ball to Hedo and get out of his way, let him bully his way to basket".

                So, please convince your darling Hedo to give up the money in Toronto and get the hell out of town! Grrrr .... the pizza is on me
                Ahh. How can i quote your post i don't know, dude. Too many contradictions in the same paragraph. Its really hard to take you seriously. On the other hand Its a good thing to be seemed honest.

                Not: What a nice nightmare btw. They were playing at the Finals with your nightmare plan when your franchise was taking Q&A on post season media conference last year.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Vellassco wrote: View Post
                  Ahh. How can i quote your post i don't know, dude. Too many contradictions in the same paragraph. Its really hard to take you seriously. On the other hand Its a good thing to be seemed honest.

                  Not: What a nice nightmare btw. They were playing at the Finals with your nightmare plan when your franchise was taking Q&A on post season media conference last year.
                  Sorry man, I know that what I said is not what you wanted to hear, but this is my take on Hedo. I just don't like his style. If he played last year in finals, that was for Orlando Magic and I can argue that the fact Orlando Magic got that far was because of Howard not because of Hedo. Hedo just played hard in order to score a big contract afterwards. Once he secured the contract, he didn't care anymore. If Hedo would have been the reason Magic played the finals, based on the same logic, Raptors should have been contenders this year. Or because of poor Hedo's play, Raptors didn't even made the playoffs. Don't get me started on Jay Triano, because he is on my "hit" list as well .
                  I don't have anything against you, you look like a passionate Hedo's fan and I respect your opinion. But please respect my opinion as well, even if you don't like it.
                  Last edited by insight_tor; Tue Apr 20th, 2010, 03:50 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    insight_tor wrote: View Post
                    Sorry man, I know that what I said is not what you wanted to hear, but this is my take on Hedo. I just don't like his style. If he played last year in finals, that was for Orlando Magic and I can argue that the fact Orlando Magic got that far was because of Howard not because of Hedo. Hedo just played hard in order to score a big contract afterwards. Once he secured the contract, he didn't care anymore. If Hedo would have been the reason Magic played the finals, based on the same logic, Raptors should have been contenders this year. Or because of poor Hedo's play, Raptors didn't even made the playoffs. Don't get me started on Jay Triano, because he is on my "hit" list as well .
                    I don't have anything against you, you look like a passionate Hedo's fan and I respect your opinion. But please respect my opinion as well, even if you don't like it.
                    Off course i respect. Especially against a guy who try to be honest. But, pls, you full of contradictions Man. Whenever you write something more , you are adding more to them.
                    I "honestly" don't remember where i said Orlando Magic got that far was because of Hedo. This is a team sport, not tennis. Not just Dwight Howard even Lebron James couldn't reached the Finals just alone himself. They felt they need to add Shaq, A. Jamison, J. Moon A. Parker to find right combination along with last year squad, huh. You have to find a right combination to gain a ring. It valid for all team sports.

                    My reaction was to your nightmare - "if CB4 leaves Raptors game will became "give the ball to Hedo"- Yeah Last year Magic were giving the BALL to Hedo and he was the facilitator. They reached the Finals. Nothing more , nothing less...

                    "If Hedo would have been the reason Magic played the finals, based on the same logic, Raptors should have been contenders this year. Or because of poor Hedo's play, Raptors didn't even made the playoffs."
                    Are you speaking with yourself, Man ? I must admit you are too cute as you are doing it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Vellassco wrote

                      "Well, thats good if your basketball knowledge is limited with per game stats. Basketball is bit more complicated than your imagination, dude. "

                      You seem like a smart guy , but one thing you seem to forget NUMBERS DONT LIE !
                      Second , I know what basketball is probably better than you might think .My imagination you say ? I read what others say , I follow the stats , I watch games and then I come to my own conclusions , pretty much like you only I dont get upset when I come across different opinion than mine .

                      Since you are so expierienced in game of baskeball , why dont you share some of your basketball credentials Pal ?

                      Cheers!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        @Bendit

                        Before all, i should say I'm one of the follower of your posts from the beginning of my membership. You have many valuable assets like wide/deep basketball knowledge, fair/objective approach to the subjects, intellectual personalty etc. It's really being great reading into your posts.

                        My reaction to describe the main causes of failure in 2 words has always been "defense" (incl. effort)and "coaching"...not so much individual players. I do believe that there is an unemployed coach out there who would have got more out of the team than Triano. So I disagree with your premise. And believe me when I write that apart from RR and other US based publications I do not follow basketball thru the local media (they are hockey and possibly baseball pseudo experts.. first...and they were assigned the basketball beat).
                        defense & coaching ?

                        NO. My Root Cause Analysis is pointing a different address for 2009-2010 season failure:

                        MANAGEMENT

                        I'm not saying radical roster change was fault. They addressed some issues before season start and 50 wins target was a must for impatient fan base. Hedo trade was crucial decision alone itself and it's also ended up with too many assets in return at the franchise corner stone year (CB4 contract). I'm also not saying BC is the wrong guy for the franchise. He is a smart guy who knows how to dance with other wolves. But he stuck there at the pre-season and did not showed his good management skills for rest of the year (except team meeting after Atlanta disaster at the first half, what else?).

                        This teams biggest suffer was that they have not been managed well throughout all year long. Crisis Management, Paternalistic style, Democratic style, Leadership style what ever you want to call them but we have seen none of them during the regular season. If you do drastic squad change and give all control to an assistant coach in his NBA first full experience year, you have no right to say: we wish we could returned the beginning of pre-season with same squad. "We've learnt too many things this year!!!" . Its painful to hear that but its also a truth.

                        Management is kinda art. Using the right employee in right position, forcing and preparing right conditions to perform those employees at their upper limits during all year long and control all variables right in time art.

                        For instance, If you determined there is some locker room issues in your team and if you think "Being a team phenomenon" is lack and if its returning you as "inconsistency" then you should take some actions to prevent occurrence of this phenomenon . i.e: organize some activities to create friendly atmosphere btw players etc. You can not just say: aah i wish we could have a "glue" guy in our roster and do nothing.

                        If you think some of your employees is having some issues with coaching staff you can not let the things solve alone itself. Do somethings and if you can not find a mid solution cut it out, take some serious actions and do not let this occurrence effect to other things.

                        If you think you were having lack of toughness on defense, so do not waste this trade opportunity at mid way through season and do not play gamble by expecting too much from Regiee Evans (as if he had defensive monster record in his career, hah, Plus he had serious injury). Marcus Camby ? Now you are mentioning to exceed way over Luxury Tax after you lost all. Bullshit. Do it when its necessary. You had opportunity to take home court advantage ( 29 wins and 35 games to play) and may be chance to be a contender. Who knows. Why did you waste it. Grrr

                        I can give more samples but its not necessary i think.

                        I do not think biggest suffer was defense. This team have shown some glimpses of good defense even against athletic teams (i.e: Last Atlanta and Bobcats games) and also shown some total basketball examples to us ( Clevland game at acc without Bosh was excellent sample for it for instance).

                        I'm including "coaching" into Management team and saying talent wise this teams limit was 3rd seat after Clevland and Magic at Eastern this year and they performed way lower than their limits by the help of bad management.
                        Last edited by Vellassco; Wed Apr 21st, 2010, 03:57 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Vellassco wrote: View Post

                          Do it when its necessary. You had opportunity to take home court advantage ( 29 wins and 35 games to play) and may be chance to be a contender. Who knows. Why did you waste it. Grrr

                          Why are you asking us? Ask Hedo, he was the one pooping on the court not us, the fans.
                          You are right about management, but what you don't realize is that the biggest mistake this management did is the deal they gave to Hedo. So far, totally failure from Raptors perspective. Defense? Hedo was complaining about "ball" all year along, but you don't need the ball on defense, just go and get it.

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