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  • Carter vs. Derozan & Lowry

    I think it's fair to assume most consider Carter as GOAT in Toronto. If Bosh had stayed then perhaps he could have took the crown due to longevity and loyalty to the team but he bailed as well. The club does have two relatively new all stars tearing up the league in DD and Lowry.

    Question: What would Lowry or DD need to do for you to consider either of them the GOAT in Toronto? Realistically do you think either can pass Vince? How about both?

  • #2
    Take us to at least the conference finals in spectacular fashion.

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    • #3
      playoffs...it's all about the playoffs at this point. We make it to the ECF this season and I'm likely to consider both ahead of VC. I think Vince had an advantage that some of the other "nominees" don't have, and that was that he was the first big star for an expansion franchise. Damon doesn't quite compare. He was great, but left early and certainly isn't at the same level of talent and excitement that Vince was. Vince was legit all-NBA talent, and put the franchise on the map. No other player will ever have the opportunity to say that again. And he was by far the most explosive and exciting player to ever play here, and because it was early on in the franchises existence I think it leaves a great impression on all but the most recent Raptors fans. But again, make the ECF this year and I think I got to put Lowry and Demar ahead of Vince. And it looks like both of these guys will have another opportunity next season to make another playoff push together, and maybe for numerous seasons thereafter. Longevity or tenure and success during that time is important for legacy. And it's important too to not leave on a bad note, which is the big disadvantage that VC has.

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      • #4
        I think Carter will never lose his spot in the minds of most Raptors fans, as he was really the first (and only) NBA superstar to play in this city. Coupled with his exciting playstyle, his ranking as probably the greatest dunker in NBA history, and the success he had with the team, I don't know if Lowry or Derozan can ever really replace him.

        However, as a team, the Raptors have never been better. This version of the Raptors has completley changed everything anyone previously thought about the franchise. The fact that Lowry and Derozan led the most successful teams in franchise will not be forgotten by fans, but they are still playoff achievments away from reaching that point.

        So basically, they're in different categories, with Carter being the most iconic Raptor, Derozan being the winningest Raptor, and Lowry being the most decorated and succesful.

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        • #5
          Lowry and DeRozan will never be on Carter's level as individuals, but as a pair their Raptors era could definitely be better than Carter's with some playoff success. Really all they have to do for that is get past the second round. They've already won more in the regular season.
          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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          • #6
            In hindsight, one of the biggest things Carter had going for him was the fact that the Toronto franchise was new and still relatively unknown. He put Toronto on the NBA map, and built his brand with every gravity-defying dunk. However, he only played a third of his career with the Raptors, and achieved his greatest NBA success (ie: playoffs) in other cities.

            If this discussion is purely about on-court exploits while in a Raptors uniform, then despite all the negatives, I think Carters is still the best player to ever wear the Raptors' jersey. This is coming from somebody who has never booed Carter, but hopes he never re-signs with the Raptors, hopes the Raptors don't retire his jersey, and hopes he doesn't wear a Raptors jersey if he ever makes it into the NBA hall of fame (which I don't think he deserves).

            The fact of the matter is that the Raptors have only had a few good seasons throughout their history and, aside from Carter's first few seasons, have never had a true star. Bosh, DeRozan and Lowry have had good seasons and helped lead teams to the playoffs, but they can't hold a candle to Vinsanity.

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            • #7
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              In hindsight, one of the biggest things Carter had going for him was the fact that the Toronto franchise was new and still relatively unknown. He put Toronto on the NBA map, and built his brand with every gravity-defying dunk. However, he only played a third of his career with the Raptors, and achieved his greatest NBA success (ie: playoffs) in other cities.

              If this discussion is purely about on-court exploits while in a Raptors uniform, then despite all the negatives, I think Carters is still the best player to ever wear the Raptors' jersey. This is coming from somebody who has never booed Carter, but hopes he never re-signs with the Raptors, hopes the Raptors don't retire his jersey, and hopes he doesn't wear a Raptors jersey if he ever makes it into the NBA hall of fame (which I don't think he deserves).

              The fact of the matter is that the Raptors have only had a few good seasons throughout their history and, aside from Carter's first few seasons, have never had a true star. Bosh, DeRozan and Lowry have had good seasons and helped lead teams to the playoffs, but they can't hold a candle to Vinsanity.
              NBA players who have led All-Star voting 4 or more times: Dr.J, MJ, Carter, and Kobe (just as of this year, he got farewell tour votes during a terrible season).
              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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              • #8
                For me its tough. It was all about Carter back int he day. Now we're talking about 2 players. 2 against 1 seems like a no-brainer. In all honesty, its really Lowry vs Carter. With Lowy having a Billups-like career maturation, the best could still yet come. KL over-saw b2b franchise bests in wins, and at least the prospect of a deep playoff run. If we make it to ECF this year, we could start the conversation. But Carter, man, the guy did stuff for the franchise that'll be hard to top.
                Welp, that sucked.

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                • #9
                  VC led the Raps to the second round where they lost a tough one against AI in 7 games. Demar and Lowry have yet to lead the Raps past round 1 and took a setback last year after getting swept.

                  In terms of talent and persona, VC is still king. He's the greatest dunker of all time. He's been a perennial top all-star vote getter in the 2000s. But this is the best era for the Raptors as a team overall. We've got a solid GM, a decent coach, and now a more solid roster that fits the coach's system. Plus now we have our own D League team where the young prospects can truly develop and not just rot on the bench.

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                  • #10
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    In hindsight, one of the biggest things Carter had going for him was the fact that the Toronto franchise was new and still relatively unknown. He put Toronto on the NBA map, and built his brand with every gravity-defying dunk. However, he only played a third of his career with the Raptors, and achieved his greatest NBA success (ie: playoffs) in other cities.

                    If this discussion is purely about on-court exploits while in a Raptors uniform, then despite all the negatives, I think Carters is still the best player to ever wear the Raptors' jersey. This is coming from somebody who has never booed Carter, but hopes he never re-signs with the Raptors, hopes the Raptors don't retire his jersey, and hopes he doesn't wear a Raptors jersey if he ever makes it into the NBA hall of fame (which I don't think he deserves).

                    The fact of the matter is that the Raptors have only had a few good seasons throughout their history and, aside from Carter's first few seasons, have never had a true star. Bosh, DeRozan and Lowry have had good seasons and helped lead teams to the playoffs, but they can't hold a candle to Vinsanity.
                    I think he will get in and I think its because of how long he's played in the league.

                    24th in scoring all-time. Iverson just got elected into the hall and Carter only trails AI by less than 500 points. Barkely, Parish, The Glove, Bird and Drexler are all in and Carter is ahead of those guys. He's about 2,500 out from 15th all-time. That would also move him ahead of Havlicek, English, Reggie and West. I don't think he makes it but still, he's in elite company.

                    81st in assists all-time. That's ahead of English, Reggie, Rick Barry and Baylor.

                    I guess the biggest case for him will be if English got in then why not him? He's a more talented player than English and you could argue his achievements are equal. My guess is he keeps playing long enough to pad the stats some more to ensure entrance... And he retires with a Raptors jersey and it hangs in the hall.

                    If you asked me five or six years ago did I think he'd make it or pick the Raptors as his team I'd say no to both. Things change though.

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                    • #11
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      In hindsight, one of the biggest things Carter had going for him was the fact that the Toronto franchise was new and still relatively unknown. He put Toronto on the NBA map, and built his brand with every gravity-defying dunk. However, he only played a third of his career with the Raptors, and achieved his greatest NBA success (ie: playoffs) in other cities.

                      If this discussion is purely about on-court exploits while in a Raptors uniform, then despite all the negatives, I think Carters is still the best player to ever wear the Raptors' jersey. This is coming from somebody who has never booed Carter, but hopes he never re-signs with the Raptors, hopes the Raptors don't retire his jersey, and hopes he doesn't wear a Raptors jersey if he ever makes it into the NBA hall of fame (which I don't think he deserves).

                      The fact of the matter is that the Raptors have only had a few good seasons throughout their history and, aside from Carter's first few seasons, have never had a true star. Bosh, DeRozan and Lowry have had good seasons and helped lead teams to the playoffs, but they can't hold a candle to Vinsanity.
                      Really? You think he's the greatest Raptor of all-time but doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired?

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                      • #12
                        I agree he doesn't deserve to have his jersey hanging from the rafters of ACC. If you compare his Raptors accolades with the accolades of those jerseys hanging in Staples center or the garden there's no comparison. The Raptors should use a similar standard. One day they may have truly great, long time loyal players deserving of the honor. If he didn't leave then this would be no debate.

                        If Carter played his Raptors career in LA or NYC or Boston would they retire his jersey? Hell no.

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                        • #13
                          tDotted wrote: View Post
                          Really? You think he's the greatest Raptor of all-time but doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired?
                          Correct.

                          He only played for the Raptors for 6 seasons, didn't get past the 2nd round of the playoffs, and left on a sour note that set the franchise back several years (at least).

                          It speaks more to the quality of the Raptors history, than it does VC. His competition for 'best Raptor ever' is Bosh, DeRozan, Lowry, Bargnani...

                          Even if he gets into the HOF, it will be more due to longevity than it will skill/results. He had a couple seasons when his light was shining bright, but he was always far more flash than substance. Plus, more than 2/3 of his career was played outside of Toronto.

                          His top-3 accomplishments as a Raptor:
                          1. NBA rookie of the year
                          2. winning slam dunk contest at all-star festivities
                          3. losing in the 2nd round of the playoffs one season

                          What makes Carter worthy of having his jersey retired by the Raptors?
                          Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Apr 4th, 2016, 02:01 PM.

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                          • #14
                            That's kind of silly. Why such a high standard?

                            If VC doesn't get his jersey retired then no one does until Toronto gets a parade of their own.
                            Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                            • #15
                              Mess wrote: View Post
                              That's kind of silly. Why such a high standard?

                              If VC doesn't get his jersey retired then no one does until Toronto gets a parade of their own.
                              I'm definitely not a huge DeRozan fan, but I could see him potentially being the first. If he winds up having a 10-15 year career, all in a Raptor jersey, and is a core piece of a team that is perennially a threat in the EC (with multiple 2nd round/ECF appearances), then he could very well be the first Raptor to have his jersey retired.

                              That still wouldn't make him a better player than Carter. I suppose that's why there's two related threads going on at the moment - 'best Raptor' and 'favorite Raptor' of all time.

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