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  • S.R.
    replied
    3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    And fortunately for the Raptors franchise, we have no say in the teams direction.

    It's Masai who's making the decisions, and thus far he's seemingly made the correct big picture moves.

    He's built a sustainable winning culture and emphasized player development.

    There is a vast element of luck involved, you have to position yourself to take advantage if you do strike it lucky.

    Cleveland finally did, although it took the massive good fortune of winning the lottery 4 times.

    GS was the treadmill team that ended up with 3 of the best players in the NBA with picks 7, 11 and 35.

    Hopefully, our model will be more the GS one.
    Sinbad wrote: View Post
    The Golden State model? They have arguably the two best shooters in NBA history, an elite jack-of-all-trades playmaking PF, and a system predicated on ball-movement and floor-spacing. Of course we can strive for their system if Masai takes an honest look at the roster and acts accordingly, but I don't know how realistic it is to try and recreate what the triumvirate of Curry-Klay-Draymond can do at their peak.
    He's talking about how GS acquired their players, not how they run their offence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sinbad
    replied
    octothorp wrote: View Post
    I think it legitimately helps Ujiri's recruiting pitch, which is all that I really care about: if you were going to rank the top teams in the league before the playoffs, I think most would say 'GS, SA, OKC, Cle, then a massive gap, then Toronto and LAC.' After the playoffs our rank here hasn't improved, but in shifting that top four are shifted around and moving Cleveland to the top, and that gap does not look as huge as it did before.
    These playoffs also emphasized the importance of getting a favorable schedule before the finals. Not even the best regular season of all-time could survive that western conference grindhouse schedule when faced with an opponent who had a relatively easy trip to the finals. Toronto, obviously, made things hard on themselves in the early rounds... but you can sell free agents on their ability to help us get to the conference finals faster and put us into it on even terms with Cleveland.
    Is it a thoroughly convincing argument? Not necessarily, but sometimes free agents hear what they want to hear, and they will take the 'lost in 6 to the champion' side of things over the 'lost that series by a combined 96 points' side of things that we fans need to keep us balanced.
    Good point. Masai can take the result and sell it to free agents. What I do worry about is the effect that the mountain of criticism the Raptors garnered during the playoffs from ESPN, CBS, and virtually every American media outlet that covered them. The criticism of their iso-heavy offense, Lowry/DeMar and Casey was deafening. It reached the point where when I would call my relatives in New York/Chicago/Louisiana, they would only have negative things to say about the Raptors because that's all that they heard. Obviously we have no control over what the American media chooses to latch onto, but it's a narrative that free agents and their representatives will no doubt have heard ad nauseum. Masai can sell being in the East and having depth, but he's going to have to play defense too-- especially with Boston looking to be major players in the off-season.

    Leave a comment:


  • octothorp
    replied
    Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post
    I think the point though is that I would feel worse if Golden State swept Cleveland and blew them out every game.

    The result does not change our off season priority or areas for improvement.
    I think it legitimately helps Ujiri's recruiting pitch, which is all that I really care about: if you were going to rank the top teams in the league before the playoffs, I think most would say 'GS, SA, OKC, Cle, then a massive gap, then Toronto and LAC.' After the playoffs our rank here hasn't improved, but in shifting that top four are shifted around and moving Cleveland to the top, and that gap does not look as huge as it did before.
    These playoffs also emphasized the importance of getting a favorable schedule before the finals. Not even the best regular season of all-time could survive that western conference grindhouse schedule when faced with an opponent who had a relatively easy trip to the finals. Toronto, obviously, made things hard on themselves in the early rounds... but you can sell free agents on their ability to help us get to the conference finals faster and put us into it on even terms with Cleveland.
    Is it a thoroughly convincing argument? Not necessarily, but sometimes free agents hear what they want to hear, and they will take the 'lost in 6 to the champion' side of things over the 'lost that series by a combined 96 points' side of things that we fans need to keep us balanced.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sinbad
    replied
    3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    And fortunately for the Raptors franchise, we have no say in the teams direction.

    It's Masai who's making the decisions, and thus far he's seemingly made the correct big picture moves.

    He's built a sustainable winning culture and emphasized player development.

    There is a vast element of luck involved, you have to position yourself to take advantage if you do strike it lucky.

    Cleveland finally did, although it took the massive good fortune of winning the lottery 4 times.

    GS was the treadmill team that ended up with 3 of the best players in the NBA with picks 7, 11 and 35.

    Hopefully, our model will be more the GS one.
    The Golden State model? They have arguably the two best shooters in NBA history, an elite jack-of-all-trades playmaking PF, and a system predicated on ball-movement and floor-spacing. Of course we can strive for their system if Masai takes an honest look at the roster and acts accordingly, but I don't know how realistic it is to try and recreate what the triumvirate of Curry-Klay-Draymond can do at their peak.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barolt
    replied
    3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    And fortunately for the Raptors franchise, we have no say in the teams direction.

    It's Masai who's making the decisions, and thus far he's seemingly made the correct big picture moves.

    He's built a sustainable winning culture and emphasized player development.

    There is a vast element of luck involved, you have to position yourself to take advantage if you do strike it lucky.

    Cleveland finally did, although it took the massive good fortune of winning the lottery 4 times.

    GS was the treadmill team that ended up with 3 of the best players in the NBA with picks 7, 11 and 35.

    Hopefully, our model will be more the GS one.
    This is why my preferred model moving forward is the "stay young, keep our window open" plan.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3inthekeon
    replied
    Sinbad wrote: View Post
    Agreed. Expecting everything to go "just right" for the Raptors again with Lowry and DeRozan having career years while Chicago, Washington, and Atlanta all take significant steps back is dangerous thinking we need to steer clear of.
    And fortunately for the Raptors franchise, we have no say in the teams direction.

    It's Masai who's making the decisions, and thus far he's seemingly made the correct big picture moves.

    He's built a sustainable winning culture and emphasized player development.

    There is a vast element of luck involved, you have to position yourself to take advantage if you do strike it lucky.

    Cleveland finally did, although it took the massive good fortune of winning the lottery 4 times.

    GS was the treadmill team that ended up with 3 of the best players in the NBA with picks 7, 11 and 35.

    Hopefully, our model will be more the GS one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rudy Bargnani
    replied
    I think the point though is that I would feel worse if Golden State swept Cleveland and blew them out every game.

    The result does not change our off season priority or areas for improvement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sinbad
    replied
    Barolt wrote: View Post
    My point is that this idea that Cleveland beating Golden State should make us feel better is kinda silly. The team that won the championship was a lot better than us, regardless of whether it was GSW or Cleveland.

    We had a great year. But that's no guarantee of a repeat performance.
    Agreed. Expecting everything to go "just right" for the Raptors again with Lowry and DeRozan having career years while Chicago, Washington, and Atlanta all take significant steps back is dangerous thinking we need to steer clear of.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barolt
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your point though. They lost, but they did better than Atlanta and Detroit.. and got farther than Miami, Indiana, Charlotte and Boston. And despite being 'rolled' by Cleveland.. they won twice. Is there room for improvement? Sure, who's saying there isn't? But could the outcome have been better if the Raptors were a little more healthy? I'm saying that there is a good as chance as any.

    But to discount what the Raptors did because Cleveland won handily means nothing.. Cleveland also 'rolled' over GSW in 3 of their 4 wins.
    My point is that this idea that Cleveland beating Golden State should make us feel better is kinda silly. The team that won the championship was a lot better than us, regardless of whether it was GSW or Cleveland.

    We had a great year. But that's no guarantee of a repeat performance.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    Barolt wrote: View Post
    But the reverse is also true... in our two wins Cleveland just missed a massive number of open shots.

    It is what it is, we can't play the 'what it might have been' game, because it didn't go perfect for either team. What did happen is we got rolled.

    Even if JV had been healthy, we didn't go to him against Miami or Indiana enough, who's to say it would've happened against Cleveland?
    I'm not sure I understand your point though. They lost, but they did better than Atlanta and Detroit.. and got farther than Miami, Indiana, Charlotte and Boston. And despite being 'rolled' by Cleveland.. they won twice. Is there room for improvement? Sure, who's saying there isn't? But could the outcome have been better if the Raptors were a little more healthy? I'm saying that there is a good as chance as any.

    But to discount what the Raptors did because Cleveland won handily means nothing.. Cleveland also 'rolled' over GSW in 3 of their 4 wins.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sinbad
    replied
    Barolt wrote: View Post
    We didn't really play the Cavs close is the big thing for me. Sure, we won two games... and the net differential in the series was 94 points.

    None of the 4 games we lost was even remotely close.
    94? Yikes. That's awful. Then again, they rolled over all three games in Cleveland, then the Cavs put their foot down in Game 6. The narrative that the Raptors played them close isn't rooted in fact, and smacks of searching for moral victories. We can appreciate them reaching the ECF, no matter how they got there, but let's slow down before we start saying that we're close to Cleveland's level. After watching the masterclass that LeBron and Kyrie put on in the Finals to take down an all-time team after trailing 3-1, I don't see how any Raptor fan could claim that we're close to them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barolt
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    Except for game 7, Cleveland won each game against GSW pretty handily as well though. Point differential in their wins against GSW was 63. Not 94, but still pretty significant.

    And I bet that 94 point differential would be much smaller with a healthy JV and\or a healthy Carroll.
    But the reverse is also true... in our two wins Cleveland just missed a massive number of open shots.

    It is what it is, we can't play the 'what it might have been' game, because it didn't go perfect for either team. What did happen is we got rolled.

    Even if JV had been healthy, we didn't go to him against Miami or Indiana enough, who's to say it would've happened against Cleveland?

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    Barolt wrote: View Post
    We didn't really play the Cavs close is the big thing for me. Sure, we won two games... and the net differential in the series was 94 points.

    None of the 4 games we lost was even remotely close.
    Except for game 7, Cleveland won each game against GSW pretty handily as well though. Point differential in their wins against GSW was 63. Not 94, but still pretty significant.

    And I bet that 94 point differential would be much smaller with a healthy JV and\or a healthy Carroll.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barolt
    replied
    We didn't really play the Cavs close is the big thing for me. Sure, we won two games... and the net differential in the series was 94 points.

    None of the 4 games we lost was even remotely close.

    Leave a comment:


  • Axel
    replied
    Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    we can only grade ourselves against the teams we play right. it is safe assumption we did better than both the pistons and hawks against the cavs right? the cavs didn't sweep us right? we won two games there right? those things happened.
    Which is why it's irrelevant that the Cavs won the title. We can only grade on what happened with the Raptors, what happens later doesn't matter. The Cavs weren't the champs when we played them. We still have to correct the issues from that Cavs series whether the Cavs beat GSW or not.

    Leave a comment:

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