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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    Long term backup PG? This window with Lowry is only for a couple more seasons, and for one of them (next year) Wright is still on a dirt cheap rookie deal. Money's not a big concern after the KL/DD/SI/JV deals expire.

    So there is ONE season where the Wright/FVV overlap in new contracts will come when the tax is a concern (and it will be a huge concern), in 2019-20. But that's not a worry for this summer. This summer the question is whether they want to pay the tax that goes along with having both Powell and FVV on the roster, or would prefer to pay the asset cost to remove Powell (and there may not actually be one, who's to say?) to keep FVV, or would prefer to simply let FVV walk.

    The following summer will be very interesting, with a massive tax bill lined up, especially if Wright gets a raise. But so much of that depends on what happens this summer that it's hard to project out that far. For now, all we can say with confidence is that the decision on FVV has basically nothing to do with Wright this summer, except insofar as the team thinks Wright makes FVV expendable.

    For my part, I think anyone who thinks FVV makes Wright expendable, or Wright makes FVV expendable, hasn't been paying attention. It's true, the all-bench unit falls apart when you remove FVV (and filter out minutes with KL/DD). But it's also true that if you leave FVV in there, and remove Wright... it still falls apart. Both lineups (in small-ish samples) have significantly negative net ratings, which is a far cry from the >+20 net rating the all bench unit has when the two PG's play together.
    Dan, do you think post Lowry that either one of FVV or Wright is going to step into the full time starters role on a permanent basis? That would be a huge drop off wouldn't it? That's why I think they team will only invest heavily in one or the other because both imo are back-up PG's.

    With regards to FVV and Wright needing to both be on the floor together for the bench to have success...wasn't that out of necessity more so than by design? Our bench is really young and inexperienced and without other ball handlers they need for two pg's is there. But do you see the two pg line-up as something they wanted to do or had to do? Despite the success I don't know if this is what they want to do in the future.

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    • LJ2 wrote: View Post
      Dan, do you think post Lowry that either one of FVV or Wright is going to step into the full time starters role on a permanent basis? That would be a huge drop off wouldn't it? That's why I think they team will only invest heavily in one or the other because both imo are back-up PG's.

      With regards to FVV and Wright needing to both be on the floor together for the bench to have success...wasn't that out of necessity more so than by design? Our bench is really young and inexperienced and without other ball handlers they need for two pg's is there. But do you see the two pg line-up as something they wanted to do or had to do? Despite the success I don't know if this is what they want to do in the future.
      It's too early to think about Raptors post Lowry. We might be looking at a whole different cast of prospects when that time comes.
      Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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      • LJ2 wrote: View Post
        Dan, do you think post Lowry that either one of FVV or Wright is going to step into the full time starters role on a permanent basis? That would be a huge drop off wouldn't it? That's why I think they team will only invest heavily in one or the other because both imo are back-up PG's.

        With regards to FVV and Wright needing to both be on the floor together for the bench to have success...wasn't that out of necessity more so than by design? Our bench is really young and inexperienced and without other ball handlers they need for two pg's is there. But do you see the two pg line-up as something they wanted to do or had to do? Despite the success I don't know if this is what they want to do in the future.
        Well, I expect Lowry will remain with the team and the starter for a few more years after this contract, just much cheaper than he is now. That said, I do envision Wright as a starting PG long term, especially beside a ball dominant wing like DeMar. Obviously a step down from a borderline superstar in Lowry but almost any starter would be.

        Casey freaking loves two PG lineups. Of course they wanted to do this, at least some of the time.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • LJ2 wrote: View Post
          Dan, do you think post Lowry that either one of FVV or Wright is going to step into the full time starters role on a permanent basis? That would be a huge drop off wouldn't it? That's why I think they team will only invest heavily in one or the other because both imo are back-up PG's.

          According to the WP48 stat Wright (.255) could step in for Lowry (.267) with minimal drop-off. FVV (.160) would be a bigger drop-off, though he's still a positive contributor in a world where the average NBA player scores 0.100.

          https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/teams/..._wins_produced

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          • I don't believe trading Powell would require attaching a pick. In fact, I think a team like BKN would give us a pick back for Powell. Also, if FVV doesn't end up coming back, then Powell has his spot next to Wright in the second unit. He'll come around in that situation but he's gotta improve his PnR game for that second unit to continue rolling like it is now in the absence of FVV.

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            • JawsGT wrote: View Post
              I don't believe trading Powell would require attaching a pick. In fact, I think a team like BKN would give us a pick back for Powell. Also, if FVV doesn't end up coming back, then Powell has his spot next to Wright in the second unit. He'll come around in that situation but he's gotta improve his PnR game for that second unit to continue rolling like it is now in the absence of FVV.
              Yeah, I'm not overly worried about Powell. He was being groomed for the DeMar role in the previous attacking guards offense, and I think he's just going through a year of reprogramming. The only slightly concerning thing about Norm is that his basketball IQ has been somewhat exposed with his inability to pick up the new offense and some defensive schemes as quickly as other players. The 'blinders on' style seemed to fit him better the previous 2 years.

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              • golden wrote: View Post
                FVV IS easily replaceable. Not by Lorenzo Brown obviously, but there are always backup PGs like TJ McConnell, Isaiah Canaan, Troy Daniels, DJ Augustin, CJ Watson, Josh Hart, Jerian Grant, Brandon Jennings, Nando de Colo, Norris Cole, etc.... available every year in the market, as free agents or they can be picked up cheaply in trades and do what FVV is doing.
                Brandon Jennings just returned to the NBA last night from China:

                16pts, 12ast, 8reb in 24 minutes. 3-6 from 3pt

                Like I was saying.....

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                • golden wrote: View Post
                  Brandon Jennings just returned to the NBA last night from China:

                  16pts, 12ast, 8reb in 24 minutes. 3-6 from 3pt

                  Like I was saying.....
                  That's very impressive, even against the Grizzlies (kind of).

                  But it's also not what FVV is doing. No one is worried about replicating his raw stat totals.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    That's very impressive, even against the Grizzlies (kind of).

                    But it's also not what FVV is doing. No one is worried about replicating his raw stat totals.
                    Sure, every player brings different skills to the table. My point is that backup PGs are available for cheap in the market, which has been proven again and again. And I trust Masai & Casey to find a suitable replacement.

                    But is your point that we are now saying that Freddy will be irreplaceable if he leaves in the summer? Sounds a lot like the Biyombo angst that people had 2 years ago.
                    Last edited by golden; Tue Mar 13, 2018, 11:14 AM.

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                    • golden wrote: View Post
                      Sure, every player brings different skills to the table. My point is that backup PGs are available for cheap in the market, which has been proven again and again. And I trust Masai & Casey to find a suitable replacement.

                      But is your point that we are now saying that Freddy will be irreplaceable if he leaves in the summer? Sounds a lot like the Biyombo angst that people had 2 years ago.
                      I don't think he's irreplaceable in the sense that the team will suffer dramatically from his exit. But I also think to expect zero drop-off from FVV to whatever random minimum signing you might make is probably foolhardy. Sure, Masai could find another gem, but even FVV required a year of seasoning before he stepped into his role this year.

                      I think the team can function just fine with Wright as the primary backup PG and staggering DD/KL more. But I'd also prefer to keep FVV, because the team will be better with him than without him.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • By the way, the Biyombo stuff was nonsense from the get-go. People wanted to get rid of JV to be able to throw significant cap space at Biyombo. It was super dumb. The argument here is not to remove the incumbent starter to be able to re-sign the valuable depth piece. It's to remove a guy who is currently on the outside of the rotation looking in, to re-sign the valuable depth piece.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • If there's a feasible way to keep him financially then do it of course, but I'm seeing some crazies on reddit talking about paying him 20M a year if that's what it takes.

                          Paying 20M a year for FVV is exactly how to completely fuck this franchise for the foreseeable future.

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                          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                            If there's a feasible way to keep him financially then do it of course, but I'm seeing some crazies on reddit talking about paying him 20M a year if that's what it takes.

                            Paying 20M a year for FVV is exactly how to completely fuck this franchise for the foreseeable future.
                            Who's going to spend $20 million on FVV?? Who's even going to have that much cap space to spend on anyone?
                            If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                            • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                              If there's a feasible way to keep him financially then do it of course, but I'm seeing some crazies on reddit talking about paying him 20M a year if that's what it takes.

                              Paying 20M a year for FVV is exactly how to completely fuck this franchise for the foreseeable future.
                              r/torontoraptors are a little to excitable sometimes
                              Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                              • Maybe Norm isn't the 2-guard of the future? Maybe the Raptors future backcourt is Freddie at the 1 and (eventually) Delon at the 2? Or to more accurately put it, our 4 main guards are those two guys, DD and Lowry, with KL and later DD fading back to give the other 2 the main minutes.

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