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  • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    Would be nice if they were showcasing him but he kinda sucked so that backfired
    Man yall make it sound like fred is just an abomination. Hes got a good plus minus, hes flirting with career 40% from 3 on nearing 500 attempts, and he has an elite assist to turnover, improved from last year.

    2 things: he hasnt improved from last year a ton, and he isnt as good as late 20s Kyle Lowry. Ok. But hes a good ass back up guard and has a great head on his shoulders.

    Youd think you reactionary alarmists would have learned by now in the masai era to stop throwing the baby out with the bath water.
    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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    • golden wrote: View Post
      I think it's more that Masai wants the option of trading Lowry without skipping a beat in the off-season, and also to show Kawhi that they've got a talented young core to keep contending when Lowry leaves in 2020. Pascal's doing his part, but OG, FVV, Wright and Powell are probably scaring Kawhi away.
      I wouldn't say scaring away. Too strong of a word.
      All man. All amazing.

      Comment


      • bertarapsfan wrote: View Post
        well you asked if he deserved 8 mil a year and clearly he does based on the players in his pay range. And of course the market dictates how much these guys make, but 8 mil is nothing to a NBA team that just barely above a rookie contract of a top 5 picks.
        Theirs very few actual rotation players who deserve less then 8 mil (C.J miles) but hes not even in the rotation anymore. I mean we have seen what he can do last season, maybe he's struggling maybe teams have figured him out but we pretty much have to play him either way as delon cant run a offense. Signing him to a 2 year term was smart rather then going the Norm route. After this season if he doesn't bring his game back we can shop him as an expiring.
        I don’t have much of an argument about your post. I actually am hopeful that he can turn it around but not the much of the benefit of the doubt that I gave to Norm and even CJ.

        It’s very blatant that Fred have some obvious limitations, it’s quiet noticeable now that the organization is showcasing him more as the understudy of Lowry. It’s not even the sample size in terms of the number of games.

        He just can’t finish down the rim, he is stubborn as hell to drive the ball to the basket knowing that their is a player twice his size who can easily block his shot. He cannot defend athletic and bigger back up PGs in the league more so a starting PG. He cannot run a decent offense and even cannot perfect a very straight forward PnR with either bigs. His 3 point shot accuracy is inconsistent, 36% is still decent but their are games that if his shots are not falling he is pretty much deadweight because of the other factors I initially mentioned.

        However the 8 mil is a good enough salary filler so Ujiri better not show empathy but more of being shrewed when it comes to his back up PG when an opportunity presents itself to trade him.

        Comment


        • KeonClark wrote: View Post
          Man yall make it sound like fred is just an abomination. Hes got a good plus minus, hes flirting with career 40% from 3 on nearing 500 attempts, and he has an elite assist to turnover, improved from last year.

          2 things: he hasnt improved from last year a ton, and he isnt as good as late 20s Kyle Lowry. Ok. But hes a good ass back up guard and has a great head on his shoulders.

          Youd think you reactionary alarmists would have learned by now in the masai era to stop throwing the baby out with the bath water.
          Problem is "Fred is a good backup PG" was true last year, but is completely false this year. Even that article, which is pumping Freddy up big-time acknowledges it:

          He has struggled throughout the season to handle in the pick-and-roll, though that has improved recently, in fits and starts. To be fair, Van Vleet was recently smothered by the Boston Celtics’ length. However, Van Vleet is at his best when surrounded by better players, not when he’s the focal point of the bench offence.Alongside mediocre talent against Boston, Van Vleet looked quite bad on the drive. But alongside Toronto’s top players, those same plays were productive for Van Vleet.
          This observation seems to be spot-on and jives with the whole "Freddy needs Pascal" and "Freddy should be strictly off-ball" narratives that many have been trumpeting. Last year's Bench Mob captain might have been a one-hit wonder.
          Last edited by golden; Fri Jan 18th, 2019, 02:25 PM.

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          • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
            I wouldn't say scaring away. Too strong of a word.
            Ok, "....not giving him any real reason to stay." How's that?

            Comment


            • I'm not sure why the organization pushing FVV is such a hot button issue. Is it because Lowry a PG, has been our best player for so long? Perhaps Masai is thinking more along the lines of grooming FVV to be Derek Fisher to Kawhi and another star at another position. Does it matter so much in that scenario if FVV is our starting PG?

              Comment


              • As someone mentioned before JVs absence has hurt this teams 3 point shooting. Its critical to have an inside threat to open up threes. Freds drives lately there hasnt been JV to take heat off him. When hes on the bench unit no JV and no Pascal. Itll be nice to see how things work when our big man gets back.

                Claws constant whining about FVV and Furys constant whine about Lowry both with no solid answer is simply annoying as fuk around here. Both your positions are well stated - now stfu about it...please

                Comment


                • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
                  I agree but you have to help me what teams then had the cap space to give him the max?

                  But again it goes back to the fact that the intention of giving max money to a player may not all based on whether that player is categorized as an elite game changer, may it just be because of a “need”, or a recruitment tool, or a team (not the raptors) desperate to make the post season. Some individuals just dont deserve it. You and I can definitely name a few not deserving of such max compensation.

                  As far as Van Vleet is concerned, does he deserve the 8 million per?
                  Wait you are asking which teams had max cap space to offer DeMar the max in the summer of 2016? The answer is every team. That was the cap boom summer. Bismack Biyombo got 18M a year that summer. DeMar was absolutely 100% zero doubt going to get the max from someone.

                  Max money compensation is a broken metric. DeRozan could deserve the max and at the same time, not be worth nearly as much as other players making the max. That's what an artificial max does. Personally, I don't think DeRozan deserved the max, but I also 100% agree with Masai's decision to give it to him so as to keep him as an asset. Just letting DeMar walk would have been dumb.

                  As for Fred, his deal is the MLE for two seasons. VanVleet absolutely 100% deserves his deal. He should have gotten a 10M+ offer over 4 years last summer.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • golden wrote: View Post
                    Ok, "....not giving him any real reason to stay." How's that?
                    All man. All amazing.

                    Comment


                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      Wait you are asking which teams had max cap space to offer DeMar the max in the summer of 2016? The answer is every team. That was the cap boom summer. Bismack Biyombo got 18M a year that summer. DeMar was absolutely 100% zero doubt going to get the max from someone.

                      Max money compensation is a broken metric. DeRozan could deserve the max and at the same time, not be worth nearly as much as other players making the max. That's what an artificial max does. Personally, I don't think DeRozan deserved the max, but I also 100% agree with Masai's decision to give it to him so as to keep him as an asset. Just letting DeMar walk would have been dumb.

                      As for Fred, his deal is the MLE for two seasons. VanVleet absolutely 100% deserves his deal. He should have gotten a 10M+ offer over 4 years last summer.
                      Thanks for reiterating what i said, lol.

                      Comment


                      • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
                        Thanks for reiterating what i said, lol.
                        Funny, I thought I was disagreeing with the very core of what you said. For example, DeRozan deserves the max. As does Lowry. It's just that a lot of players deserve more than that, they just can't get it.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

                        Comment


                        • DanH wrote: View Post

                          Personally, I don't think DeRozan deserved the max, but I also 100% agree with Masai's decision to give it to him so as to keep him as an asset. Just letting DeMar walk would have been dumb.
                          .
                          The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
                          Thanks for reiterating what i said, lol.
                          DanH wrote: View Post
                          Funny, I thought I was disagreeing with the very core of what you said. For example, DeRozan deserves the max. As does Lowry. It's just that a lot of players deserve more than that, they just can't get it.
                          Unless you said that Derozan deserved the super max

                          Comment


                          • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
                            Unless you said that Derozan deserved the super max
                            Hmm, yeah, talked myself in a circle there. To clarify: DeRozan's value on the market was decidedly the max. And by that measure deserved it. While IMO his play is not deserving of it, in a vacuum, but with the way the team was constructed, re-signing him to that was the correct move.

                            On the other hand, it does come down to quality of player. It's just that the line above which players deserve the max (in a market value sense) is lower than your comment implied. Even ignoring specific team needs, desperation, or recruitment. There are players (such as DeMar) who would get the max with none of those as factors just based on market value, and yet still be worth far less than other players who make the max. So I'm not sure which individuals you meant when you said they wouldn't deserve to be paid the max, equating that with not falling into your category of "elite game changer." The line is simply lower than that - there aren't enough elite game changers in the league to take up all the max money slots.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

                            Comment


                            • DanH wrote: View Post
                              Hmm, yeah, talked myself in a circle there. To clarify: DeRozan's value on the market was decidedly the max. And by that measure deserved it. While IMO his play is not deserving of it, in a vacuum, but with the way the team was constructed, re-signing him to that was the correct move.

                              On the other hand, it does come down to quality of player. It's just that the line above which players deserve the max (in a market value sense) is lower than your comment implied. Even ignoring specific team needs, desperation, or recruitment. There are players (such as DeMar) who would get the max with none of those as factors just based on market value, and yet still be worth far less than other players who make the max. So I'm not sure which individuals you meant when you said they wouldn't deserve to be paid the max, equating that with not falling into your category of "elite game changer." The line is simply lower than that -

                              there aren't enough elite game changers in the league to take up all the max money slots.
                              Stealing the usual first liner of no.10 on every media interview.... “Most definitely”. Lol.

                              Comment


                              • Elite game changers deserving:

                                Bron
                                Curry
                                Harden
                                Giannis
                                Kawhi

                                Not deserving:
                                Conley
                                Hayward
                                Horford
                                Derozan
                                Griffin
                                Paul
                                Westbrook
                                Paul George
                                Millsap

                                But I may just have open up a can of worms

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