Everything VanVleet

[inthepaint]

who are you referring to taking a seat? FVV? or GTJ?


I am going to assume you mean FVV. That is fair. I was jus having an argument earlier with someone about Pascal still "taking Barnes" shoto and I was pointing out Pascal isn't the problem. The problem is partially Barnes and Partially on GTJ and FVV. I agree with you though. His shooting percentage from 3 is good enough to warrant an increased shot attempt. I just think that there are sometimes and some games that he can take maybe 8 less shots and have those shots be more evenly distributed.


GTJ on the other hand again would benefit from being on the second unit. Perhaps with Barnes, when Barnes is tasked with running that unit. The reason is because GTJ likes to shoot and that unit has no consistent form of half court offence.

I'm talking about Fred, he's the player your were referring to on the post I replied. I've been critical of Fred in the past re his forced shots and forced drives vs set defences. There were times in the past and there might be times in the future where that was/would be warranted, but right now it certainly isn't. Dude's on fire, and should have all the incentive and green light to let it fly, as long as he continues to do it within the flow of the game.

He's been the best player on this team this year, we'd likely be around .400 or lower if it wasn't for him, I have no problem if he or others recognize that. That's not a knock on anyone else though, on the contrary - like I said on another post, the reason his game is thriving is precisely because Siakam, OG, and Scottie are also thriving and finally playing together for a decent stretch of games. That takes the pressure off Fred to force low quality shots.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I'm talking about Fred, he's the player your were referring to on the post I replied. I've been critical of Fred in the past re his forced shots and forced drives vs set defences. There were times in the past and there might be times in the future where that was/would be warranted, but right now it certainly isn't. Dude's on fire, and should have all the incentive and green light to let it fly, as long as he continues to do it within the flow of the game.

He's been the best player on this team this year, we'd likely be around .400 or lower if it wasn't for him, I have no problem if he or others recognize that. That's not a knock on anyone else though, on the contrary - like I said on another post, the reason his game is thriving is precisely because Siakam, OG, and Scottie are also thriving and finally playing together for a decent stretch of games. That takes the pressure off Fred to force low quality shots.

Fair enough. Just to clarify I don't hate fred. I just want him to continue his decision-making evolution.

[TrueTorontoFan]

This.
Move Scottie and GTJ to the 2nd unit.
This is the most proper way to develop him.
Being the 4th option, playing more like a 3D guy is NOT how we want Scottie to develop.

Depends on what your goals are. If you want to win no.

If you want to develop sure. They want a mixture of both so right now it makes sense to move GTJ to the bench, and then have Scottie do what he is doing. Watching the games its clear that they want him in closing line ups 9/10 times. They also want him as part of that 5 man top tier unit. What happens is exactly what I suggested many months ago at the start of the season even though everyone said no. I said stagger the top 5. Take Scottie out early. Bring him back early let him run the bench for a while ... send him back out early for an extended breather and then bring him back to close. This is exactly what ended up happening.


The question has recently been.. when we are all happy who is best on the bench with him. The Scottie running the bench has happened partially because we have no consistent production from the bench, especially with Yuta out. But yeah Flynn, and Banton need development time. They have been obtaining it on the 905, which makes sense. They need to build up those reps and confidence back up. The other reason is because management needed a ball handler on that unit who could produce their own offence at a reasonable level given the aforementioned young guard pipeline issues.

What you are asking for already happens. The reason why his offensive numbers from a shooting standpoint are lower is because he isn't always the most assertive offensively and is still learning when to just go for it. He tries to outthink the simple plays sometimes because he sees something two moves ahead. This is good but sometimes you overthink things.. just go for it.


He is the opposite of GTJ. GTJ or even precious... they get that ball and its not leaving their hands at times unless its going to be shot towards the rim or in precious' case bulldozed towards the rim lol.
Scottie needs to improve his handle. I will keep saying that again and again and again. It will improve. But overall he is getting the reps he needs. I will say this other thing again. Scottie will be "there" next year. You will see signs of it in the summer league perhaps because he will just outright dominate summer league. (they will likely send him and banton because they always tend to send a second-year guy and a point guard of some sort to help run the sets. Right now the things they are teaching him in terms of defence, and rotations, and the system go deeper than him needing to take 30 shots a game. There will come a time when that will be required. Now is not that time.



I think Barnes with GTJ makes the most sense because of what I have outlined.


TLDR: It's already happening... Barnes is just still starting with the starters.

[The Claw Reborn]

Depends on what your goals are. If you want to win no.

If you want to develop sure. They want a mixture of both so right now it makes sense to move GTJ to the bench, and then have Scottie do what he is doing. Watching the games its clear that they want him in closing line ups 9/10 times. They also want him as part of that 5 man top tier unit. What happens is exactly what I suggested many months ago at the start of the season even though everyone said no. I said stagger the top 5. Take Scottie out early. Bring him back early let him run the bench for a while ... send him back out early for an extended breather and then bring him back to close. This is exactly what ended up happening.


The question has recently been.. when we are all happy who is best on the bench with him. The Scottie running the bench has happened partially because we have no consistent production from the bench, especially with Yuta out. But yeah Flynn, and Banton need development time. They have been obtaining it on the 905, which makes sense. They need to build up those reps and confidence back up. The other reason is because management needed a ball handler on that unit who could produce their own offence at a reasonable level given the aforementioned young guard pipeline issues.

What you are asking for already happens. The reason why his offensive numbers from a shooting standpoint are lower is because he isn't always the most assertive offensively and is still learning when to just go for it. He tries to outthink the simple plays sometimes because he sees something two moves ahead. This is good but sometimes you overthink things.. just go for it.


He is the opposite of GTJ. GTJ or even precious... they get that ball and its not leaving their hands at times unless its going to be shot towards the rim or in precious' case bulldozed towards the rim lol.
Scottie needs to improve his handle. I will keep saying that again and again and again. It will improve. But overall he is getting the reps he needs. I will say this other thing again. Scottie will be "there" next year. You will see signs of it in the summer league perhaps because he will just outright dominate summer league. (they will likely send him and banton because they always tend to send a second-year guy and a point guard of some sort to help run the sets. Right now the things they are teaching him in terms of defence, and rotations, and the system go deeper than him needing to take 30 shots a game. There will come a time when that will be required. Now is not that time.



I think Barnes with GTJ makes the most sense because of what I have outlined.


TLDR: It's already happening... Barnes is just still starting with the starters.

I think having Birch start and demoting GTJ to the bench is just not the most prudent move. Birch does not offset whatever GTJ can bring at both ends of the floor.

Birch is a stop gap, he is just a body.

I also don’t fully trust Precious…he being young though could be the best energy guy off the bench if ever the Raptors do find a legitimate Center to start. When that happens then I don’t mind having GTJ be our 6th man.

[Kagemusha]

He hasn't been a 3D guy at all. Hes missing shots sure, but hes been used as a Gasol type. Initiate the offense as a playmaker at the top of the key, with a mix of post ups or sitting in the corner as Pascal and Fred do their thing. He is versatile enough to do many things.

I don't think Gasol is what we want Scottie to end up being.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I think having Birch start and demoting GTJ to the bench is just not the most prudent move. Birch does not offset whatever GTJ can bring at both ends of the floor.

Birch is a stop gap, he is just a body.

I also don’t fully trust Precious…he being young though could be the best energy guy off the bench if ever the Raptors do find a legitimate Center to start. When that happens then I don’t mind having GTJ be our 6th man.

oh nonono precious needs to be on the bench for sure. I was thinking of demoting GTJ without even thinking about Birch or Precious good point.

[Primer]

oh nonono precious needs to be on the bench for sure. I was thinking of demoting GTJ without even thinking about Birch or Precious good point.

If we had GTJ starting last night we win that game. Our swarming 6'9 defense is starting to gel. No need to make changes now. Just keep letting that lineup improve leading into the playoffs and we're going to be a nightmare matchup.

[The Claw Reborn]

oh nonono precious needs to be on the bench for sure. I was thinking of demoting GTJ without even thinking about Birch or Precious good point.

GTJ is a very valuable asset and I suspect Masai would only consider moving him if that returning asset would offset what Gary can bring at both ends of the court. The guy is so young with still a relatively unknown ceiling.

Unlike VanVleet and Siakam who we already know what they can offer.

[TrueTorontoFan]

GTJ is a very valuable asset and I suspect Masai would only consider moving him if that returning asset would offset what Gary can bring at both ends of the court. The guy is so young with still a relatively unknown ceiling.

Unlike VanVleet and Siakam who we already know what they can offer.

you and I have specifically discussed said returns for gtj. I think Siakam likely has another gear but that gear isn't super far from where he is. I think FVV is who he is. I am higher on Siakam because of his physical tools

Best time to trade GTJ is in the off season. Unless its for Caris Levert

[KeonClark]

you and I have specifically discussed said returns for gtj. I think Siakam likely has another gear but that gear isn't super far from where he is. I think FVV is who he is. I am higher on Siakam because of his physical tools

Best time to trade GTJ is in the off season. Unless its for Caris Levert

Not sure how you two keep talking about how Fred "is what he is" and a "finished product" when he's literally improving leaps and bounds before our very eyes at this current time.

Unless somehow you guys "knew" he'd be a top 5-10 pg this year and replace Kyle lowrys role seamlessly. I must have missed those posts.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Not sure how you two keep talking about how Fred "is what he is" and a "finished product" when he's literally improving leaps and bounds before our very eyes at this current time.

Unless somehow you guys "knew" he'd be a top 5-10 pg this year and replace Kyle lowrys role seamlessly. I must have missed those posts.

I don't think he is fully finished. I think he has physical limitations that will limit his ceiling. You can't teach height. I am actually in favor of keeping fred. I just think long-term fred either becomes a full-time SG or gets traded because his contract is going to continue to be a great contract and he will continue to outproduce his contract. That is really as simple as I can make it.


The idea that someone is a fully finished product at age 27/28 is simply silly. For me its about ... OK after this year what is the next step to get us another guy. Only way you do it is by likely either the draft or a good trade. My guess is through asset management it will be FVV.


Siakam is already operating at a point that is beyond that of the bubble season (ignore the bubble itself) so he is already better. Same with Fred.

If I misworded that my bad.

[TrueTorontoFan]

If we had GTJ starting last night we win that game. Our swarming 6'9 defense is starting to gel. No need to make changes now. Just keep letting that lineup improve leading into the playoffs and we're going to be a nightmare matchup.

gtj or barnes

[SkywalkerAC]

20/5/5 is legit all-star line. I haven't looked right now, but iirc it's very rare that a player averaging that doesn't make it, especially if they're also a 2-way player contributing to winning. I remember the year Sabonis was averaging that and almost didn't make it, and that was considered unusual (he ended up getting due to someone getting hurt), so I think if Fred sustains that, he should get it

For the MVP ladder the team is usually on the top 4 in the conference (unless it's an established unicorn like old lebron, embiid or Jokic). That said If we continue to win games with the kinds of performance Fred is putting and that puts us in the top 4 in the east (we're 3 games behind that spot), than yeah he should start showing up on that

For the actual MVP award it's more like top 3 teams in the entire league.

[DanH]

I don't think Gasol is what we want Scottie to end up being.

Gasol plus Kawhi's scoring profile (which Scottie has somehow already shown flashes of) wouldn't be a bad outcome though!

[DanH]

I think having Birch start and demoting GTJ to the bench is just not the most prudent move. Birch does not offset whatever GTJ can bring at both ends of the floor.

Birch is a stop gap, he is just a body.

I also don’t fully trust Precious…he being young though could be the best energy guy off the bench if ever the Raptors do find a legitimate Center to start. When that happens then I don’t mind having GTJ be our 6th man.

The small lineup with all 5 non-C starters has played nearly 100 minutes this season and is still a not quite break-even lineup (-0.6 net rating).

The looks with Birch in Trent's place (+7 net rating, 22 minutes) or Barnes' place (+13.7 net rating, 39 minutes) are both smaller samples but at least they are winning their minutes (Precious' results are even smaller samples and are all over the place in terms of success or lack thereof, as you'd expect from smaller samples).

There's not much evidence that the starters are better going small than going with Birch. Trent and Barnes both have games that can shine with the bench and are very valuable with the bench. They've been making the small starting group work by changing to the big one as quickly as they can in the 1st and 3rd Qs with an early sub for Birch, but I'm sure that is just locker room politics, easing into the obvious decision they want to make (starting Birch, Trent or Barnes to the bench), though it is also obvious how they would have a hard time removing either player from the starting group considering both have played great, but the lineup just doesn't work very well. It's not a disaster but I don't think "non-disaster" is their goal here.