Everything VanVleet

[The Claw Reborn]

Funny that a few will always overrate mediocrity, glorifying players with so low ceiling.

Stop the madness. We can get a player who can consistently shoot the three, taller who can defend athletic PGs for what Fred the midget is getting as an annual salary.

I like Fred but Ujiri should not too be attached, GMs get fired for that

[Demographic Shift]

Funny that a few will always overrate mediocrity, glorifying players with so low ceiling.

Stop the madness. We can get a player who can consistently shoot the three, taller who can defend athletic PGs for what Fred the midget is getting as an annual salary.

I like Fred but Ujiri should not too be attached, GMs get fired for that

A few still think well of you ...

Yes.. of course we can... They grow on trees....Name off a few people who hit that spot on the venn diagram and are only 24.

[The Claw Reborn]

A few still think well of you ...

Yes.. of course we can... They grow on trees....Name off a few people who hit that spot on the venn diagram and are only 24.

Listen, do you honestly believe that the 8 million that he is getting yearly cannot net us another player who is taller, can guard more athletic PGs and has a decent 3 point shooting percentage?

[KeonClark]

Listen, do you honestly believe that the 8 million that he is getting yearly cannot net us another player who is taller, can guard more athletic PGs and has a decent 3 point shooting percentage?

Well, looks like you've got your Claw sunk into a new victim..

8 million is pittance. Fred is a smart heady player and unfortunately for this team one of the best shooters we got. Arguably our best ball handler and a tenacious defender.

I know we have to find SOMEBODY...Miles is out now, Ibakas playing good...so Fred gets it...but I do understand why Nurse plays him. Especially when Green is not there. It's IQ, and reliability.

[Demographic Shift]

Listen, do you honestly believe that the 8 million that he is getting yearly cannot net us another player who is taller, can guard more athletic PGs and has a decent 3 point shooting percentage?

In a decisive word... No

.
Here are some guys in the 8 to 9M per annum range....

Jerryd Bayless...... Lou (All O.. No D) Williams ...Our best friend Cory Joseph...Darren Collison and JJ Barea (both shorter than Freddy and who play less D) and the always available Micheal Carter Williams...

The floor is yours ....

[golden]

In a decisive word... No

.
Here are some guys in the 8 to 9M per annum range....

Jerryd Bayless...... Lou (All O.. No D) Williams ...Our best friend Cory Joseph...Darren Collison and JJ Barea (both shorter than Freddy and who play less D) and the always available Micheal Carter Williams...

The floor is yours ....

Just off the top of my head: Quinn Cook, Landry Shamet, Derrick Rose or any random guard named DJ (e.g. White or Augustin). And CoJo is playing great this year, if you hadn't checked. No longer being Casey'd.

[The Claw Reborn]

Well, looks like you've got your Claw sunk into a new victim..

8 million is pittance. Fred is a smart heady player and unfortunately for this team one of the best shooters we got. Arguably our best ball handler and a tenacious defender.

I know we have to find SOMEBODY...Miles is out now, Ibakas playing good...so Fred gets it...but I do understand why Nurse plays him. Especially when Green is not there. It's IQ, and reliability.

I am sure you have your own biases, it would be hypocritical to not have one as a sports fan. I actually like Fred because of his grit and perseverance. But sometimes those assets are not enough to be a major contributor to a “contending” team. I have no doubt that he can be a great addition to a “developing” team. I question his BBIQ, e.g. his understanding that driving down the lane with a taller player twice his size is a good example of lack of awareness.

His salary is a good filler to package with another player in addressing the pressing need of this team which is 3 point shooting and rebounds. I am more comfortable having Wright and Powell as back ups for Lowry because of their height and athleticism.

[The Claw Reborn]

In a decisive word... No

.
Here are some guys in the 8 to 9M per annum range....

Jerryd Bayless...... Lou (All O.. No D) Williams ...Our best friend Cory Joseph...Darren Collison and JJ Barea (both shorter than Freddy and who play less D) and the always available Micheal Carter Williams...

The floor is yours ....

I thought his subtraction would provide opportunities for both Wright and Norm. Then as I mentioned in my previous post, his salary can be a big add-on to acquire someone who can fill the void of a rebounder/ reliable 3 point shooter

[Demographic Shift]

Just off the top of my head: Quinn Cook, Landry Shamet, Derrick Rose or any random guard named DJ (e.g. White or Augustin). And CoJo is playing great this year, if you hadn't checked. No longer being Casey'd.

A nice mix of guys on rookie deals (Shameet/White) ... and a few retreads in their 30's

CoJo is CoJo.... he dribbled the air out of the ball and dribbled his way out of town for it.... Ujiri made a choice as well ....Corey or Fred..he went with VV.

Derrick Rose... an interesting choice... a 30 year old with no ACL's who with his stable personal life might not check the boxes Ujiri looks for.

DJ Augustine...

Cook would be a good compare....
8 pts a game... 2 boards.. 2 helpers... does shoot a very healthy 44% from 3. He turns it over once a game on average and would have an assist to turnover ratio of 1 to 1. He is 2 inches taller and 20 pounds lighter than Fred.

Fred is
10 pts a game... 3 boards.. 5 helpers .. shoots 36% from 3. Turns it over once a game for an assist to turnover ratio of 5 to 1. Its an observation but VV plays waaaaaaay better defense than Cook.
He is shorter than Cook but is physically bigger.

So.. even wheeling fred against the nba field.. you got a personal choice pickem with one guy....

So the overall point here is that finding a taller.. younger... better defender...better shooter from 3. who isn't a 1st round pick on a team friendly rookie deal is not like going out for milk at Loblaws...

[3inthekeon]

This board has a Terrance Jones syndrome. We think guys are good because they put up seemingly decent stats. But we never look in depth about how often they get totally lost on the defensive end, or how many poor offensive decisions they make.

[DanH]

Guys, FVV is being misused seemingly to find the limits of his upside, is struggling in that role, and is STILL grading out as a top 20-25 PG when looking at impact stats.

He provides exactly what this team needs (decent defence at point and in help, off ball shooting and movement) from that spot. They are just using him wrong right now.

Putting another player in the spot is a bad solution, because we don't know whether a) that player would be used correctly considering FVV is not right now, and b) that player pretty definitively wouldn't have the upside Fred does in terms of impact if you assume both players would eventually be used correctly.

[golden]

A nice mix of guys on rookie deals (Shameet/White) ... and a few retreads in their 30's

CoJo is CoJo.... he dribbled the air out of the ball and dribbled his way out of town for it.... Ujiri made a choice as well ....Corey or Fred..he went with VV.

Derrick Rose... an interesting choice... a 30 year old with no ACL's who with his stable personal life might not check the boxes Ujiri looks for.

DJ Augustine...

Cook would be a good compare....
8 pts a game... 2 boards.. 2 helpers... does shoot a very healthy 44% from 3. He turns it over once a game on average and would have an assist to turnover ratio of 1 to 1. He is 2 inches taller and 20 pounds lighter than Fred.

Fred is
10 pts a game... 3 boards.. 5 helpers .. shoots 36% from 3. Turns it over once a game for an assist to turnover ratio of 5 to 1. Its an observation but VV plays waaaaaaay better defense than Cook.
He is shorter than Cook but is physically bigger.

So.. even wheeling fred against the nba field.. you got a personal choice pickem with one guy....

So the overall point here is that finding a taller.. younger... better defender...better shooter from 3. who isn't a 1st round pick on a team friendly rookie deal is not like going out for milk at Loblaws...

An odd time to be trumpeting FVV's defense after he just got torched by the best tanking backcourt in basketball.

Again, the issue is not that Fred can be a replacement level backup PG (he can, and is), the problem is Nurse trying to turn him into a starting PG or a starting SG, when you have other choices for defense, like Powell & Wright, or inserting OG at SF with Kawhi guarding the opposition backcourt, which ultimately needed to happen to save the Hawks game. We didn't need a fourth ball-handler, with Kyle, Kawhi and Pascal all active. That probably messed with the chemistry, actually.

Again, it's probably a moot point because Masai paid FVV and we're going to ride him, so that's that, but Freddy seems like he is being protected by surrounding him with players that will hide his weaknesses. You surround Wright with Lowry, Kawhi, Pascal, etc... and his stats will dramatically improve.

[Demographic Shift]

I thought his subtraction would provide opportunities for both Wright and Norm. Then as I mentioned in my previous post, his salary can be a big add-on to acquire someone who can fill the void of a rebounder/ reliable 3 point shooter

OK.. if thats what you think... but what you said was that finding an upgrade to Fred would be as easy as picking up a bag of milk at Loblaws... Its not.

No one is against upgrading personnel when the opportunity presents itself.
Of course you can upgrade on FVV..
Its just that the cost to do it for a measureable material gain in production and team fit is a very very difficult task.

[The Claw Reborn]

OK.. if thats what you think... but what you said was that finding an upgrade to Fred would be as easy as picking up a bag of milk at Loblaws... Its not.

No one is against upgrading personnel when the opportunity presents itself.
Of course you can upgrade on FVV..
Its just that the cost to do it for a measureable material gain in production and team fit is a very very difficult task.

But this is not Babcock of No Frills, we are relying on the man with a magic wand Ujiri.

[planetmars]

I don't see Fred being moved. Delon has not been that good this year either and we just dropped Brown. Kyle is still vulnerable with this back issues.. and with Kyle just playing like Kyle plays.... we need Fred.

We have so many perimeter weapons though. It's on Nurse to not play Fred when he doesn't have to. OG or Norm could have started for Green last night for example. When the opposing guards are feasting on us all night you need to come back with a different plan.

Last night Lin and Young had 39 points. Lin himself went 8-10 and had 20 points and 9 assists.