Everything VanVleet

[Raptor Jesus]

We have 15 mans on the roster for a reason.

He isn't producing, McCaw made near as many shots and wasn't a negative on defence in the 6ers series.

Even if Lin doesn't find his mid range jumper, it's clear he's a larger defender to shoot over.

We aren't chasing JJ Reddick in this series. Capable team defenders with any offense > Freddy Too Short

[KeonClark]

How many chances does a bench player get in the playoffs? Fuck sakes. He lost his minutes in one game, then had one "decent" outing with like 4 points and 2 defensive plays and Nick's like HES BACK

enough. This guy is fucking killing us.

the bench is gonna have a real long summer if we lose this series.

[Scraptor]

It’s looking less and less likely Fred steps up but with our sudden lack of depth, if we’re gonna have any chance of getting out of this series, he’s gonna have to start producing some positive minutes. (For a lot of you, I guess that means we’re cooked.)

I think the notion that either Fred produces or we lose the series is a false dichotomy. I also think that the huge success we had with Fred is why Nurse believes in this false dichotomy.

Fred has looked completely overmatched out there. I think if you keep waiting game after game for him to snap out of it, you eventually dig a hole so deep you can't get out of it.

With Kyle, we have a body of work that's years at an all-star level. For Fred we have a single year leading a strong bench.

I agree that he's in his head now, and I don't think we can afford to let him play 20 minutes a game to work through it. I'd rather he spot Kyle and roll the dice with McCaw backing up the wing than see Fred share the floor with Kyle for a single more minute this series.

[MixxAOR]

To be clear, this was not a defense of Fred, it was a question.

Obviously, the five man unit skewed our perceptions. That said, if he’s able to play with this year’s starters, including Pascal, who we now know was responsible for driving much of the success of that unit. Shouldn’t that be an even better situation?

We could say that it’s the rigour of the playoffs, and how opponents step it up, but really his play has dropped off all year. You could say people have figured him out, but what’s there to figure out. Last year he hit his shots when he needed to. This year he hasn’t. And he’s now in his head and it’s compounding itself exponentially.

Again, not a defense, but a question, how did this guy finish top three for sixth man of the year?

Pretty much everyone was off the Kyle Lowry boat — read my post about him before yesterday’s game. Not giving myself credit, but lo and behold, he has the playoff game of his life.

Fred is obviously not Kyle Lowry but he’s previously shown that he can play in this league.

It’s looking less and less likely Fred steps up but with our sudden lack of depth, if we’re gonna have any chance of getting out of this series, he’s gonna have to start producing some positive minutes. (For a lot of you, I guess that means we’re cooked.)

He had great chemistry with Delon last year. Almost like yin-yang. Delon could penetrate, draw fouls, finish layups and guard tough PGs. FVV would spot up and occasionally drive when defense scrambled. This year FVV felt like he needed to improve on his last year so he took over the offense (he responded to a comment on ig saying something like "Regressed when I average more ppg and assists?") and forced Delon out. It's Delon's fault he needed to be more assertive. Let's also not underestimate how good Jacob and on point CJ Miles was last year.


In case people think I'm making shit up

[planetmars]

It's funny because I always thought Fred would be stable no matter the situation he was in.. but I really think the Orlando series got the best of him and he just continued to get rattled through the Philly series. Fred has a killer instinct in him.. but it's completely missing in these playoffs.

It really does suck... Fred makes $9M and Norm makes $10M next year.. Neither are giving us much and yet they use up like $19M of our precious cap space. Would have been better to use that money on a really good player and then buy 2nd rounders to fill out the rest of the bench.

Masai has to do a better job with these role player contracts. He needs to find playoff performers if he expects playoff success. A guy like Rajon Rondo for example off the bench would have been awesome.

Look at what Ennis gave to the 6er's last series.. Oh well.. can't really cry about it now. Just hope our starters can figure out how to play tired.

The good news is George Hill didn't kick our asses last night. He had 4 steals, but put up 0 points. Pat Connaughton also had 0 points for them. So at least we're not letting scrubs go off on us like they did in Philly.

[GOLDBLUM]

How many chances does a bench player get in the playoffs? Fuck sakes. He lost his minutes in one game, then had one "decent" outing with like 4 points and 2 defensive plays and Nick's like HES BACK

enough. This guy is fucking killing us.

the bench is gonna have a real long summer if we lose this series.

Who do you play then? Lin has been literally as good as any of us would be out there, or worse. McCaw was unavailable. OG out... no other ball handlers to be had. And even as great as Kyle was, he can’t play the whole game. Kyle played 40. FVV played 13. You could drop him out for those five and just give him the 8 that Kyle was off for.

Unfortunately, our hands are somewhat tied here.

[Scraptor]

Just some perspective on Fred's play:

There have been 342 player-seasons over the past 5 years where a player has played a minimum of 200 playoff minutes.

Of those 342, Fred currently has the 3rd worst true shooting percentage.

[GOLDBLUM]

Just some perspective on Fred's play:

There have been 342 player-seasons over the past 5 years where a player has played a minimum of 200 playoff minutes.

Of those 342, Fred currently has the 3rd worst true shooting percentage.

So .... you’re saying he’s better than two people.

[KeonClark]

Who do you play then? Lin has been literally as good as any of us would be out there, or worse. McCaw was unavailable. OG out... no other ball handlers to be had. And even as great as Kyle was, he can’t play the whole game. Kyle played 40. FVV played 13. You could drop him out for those five and just give him the 8 that Kyle was off for.

Unfortunately, our hands are somewhat tied here.

I dunno, but it really sucks that the last few playoffs proved to us that "depth is a regular season gift, star power is everything" and now that we finally built that roster philosophy, depth could become our demise.

[KeonClark]

So .... you’re saying he’s better than two people.

let's find out who!

Patterson, Patrick TOR
Carroll, Demarre TOR

oof

[golden]

I dunno, but it really sucks that the last few playoffs proved to us that "depth is a regular season gift, star power is everything" and now that we finally built that roster philosophy, depth could become our demise.

Giving bench players freedom to create off the dribble, in hopes that they could evolve to be playmakers under pressure was the other major change that's hard to pinpoint cause & effect. You can always blame the players, but is that style of play putting bench guys & role players like Lin and FVV in a position to be successful? Lin was having close to career year on the Hawks, just before he came here. And he's surrounded by better players here, but looks lost. What happened? He didn't get this shitty overnight.

[MixxAOR]

Giving bench players freedom to create off the dribble, in hopes that they could evolve to be playmakers under pressure was the other major change that's hard to pinpoint cause & effect. You can always blame the players, but is that style of play putting bench guys & role players like Lin and FVV in a position to be successful? Lin was having close to career year on the Hawks, just before he came here. And he's surrounded by better players here, but looks lost. What happened? He didn't get this shitty overnight.

he was playing pretty badly for two months before signing with Raps. Three point shot completely dissappeared

[golden]

he was playing pretty badly for two months before signing with Raps. Three point shot completely dissappeared

Not so. Other than 3P shot, Lin was more than fine as a backup the 2 months before the trade deadline.

Dec: 9.1 ppg, 3.4. apg, 117 ORTG. That's excellent production & efficiency for a backup
Jan: 12.1 ppg, 4.8 apg, 110 ORTG. Still very good. Bench player, producing league average efficiency.
Feb: 8.6 ppg, 3.6 apg, 102 ORTG. Feb 7th was the trade deadline, so this is mostly Raptors games. Notice the ORTG dropping.
Mar: 7.5 ppg, 1.9 apg, 94 ORTG. Efficiency has now dropped to G-League type player levels.
Apr: 3.8 ppg, 1.5 apg, 81 ORTG. This is like somebody on RR being put in the rotation. The more Lin played in our system... the worse he got. This is not normal.

[MixxAOR]

Not so. Other than 3P shot, Lin was more than fine as a backup the 2 months before the trade deadline.

Dec: 9.1 ppg, 3.4. apg, 117 ORTG. That's excellent production & efficiency for a backup
Jan: 12.1 ppg, 4.8 apg, 110 ORTG. Still very good. Bench player, producing league average efficiency.
Feb: 8.6 ppg, 3.6 apg, 102 ORTG. Feb 7th was the trade deadline, so this is mostly Raptors games. Notice the ORTG dropping.
Mar: 7.5 ppg, 1.9 apg, 94 ORTG. Efficiency has now dropped to G-League type player levels.
Apr: 3.8 ppg, 1.5 apg, 81 ORTG. This is like somebody on RR being put in the rotation. The more Lin played in our system... the worse he got. This is not normal.

So his ORTG has been steadily dropping for months. Hell of a oversight by Bobby

[golden]

So his ORTG has been steadily dropping for months. Hell of a oversight by Bobby

It was 88 (7 games), 118, 117, 110 with the Hawks. That's normal variation, but it's very good. Lin went from bad-to-worse-to-pathetic only AFTER he got here. Nothing he did with the Hawks would have predicted that he would fall off the map to the level he did here. I mean, 84 ORTG is really, really, really bad.