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  • Absolutely think FVV is someone who should be flipped for value right now. I fear if we re-sign him we're in danger of a Terry Rozier (i know it's different because Rozier was an RFA) type situation where we have to pay starter money to a guy who probably would be one of the worst starting PGs in the league (he's one of the best backups though if not the best).

    I really think we should be trying to move FVV, Lowry, Ibaka and Gasol's expirings for bad deals that end in 2020-21 and draft picks/prospects. Ideally the only guys you have on the books going into that summer are Pascal, OG and whatever rookie scale guys we draft. Would be nice to get a high pick before then though so we have hopefully 2+ young all-stars (Pascal and the up and coming rookie/sophomore) and OG to pitch to potential free agents.

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    • One trade I would consider at the deadline.. Fred for Felicio. Felicio's contract ends in 2021... and he's awful. Bulls could use the home town kid I bet as a long term piece.. they'll have his Bird Rights. We get some pick back for Felicio. And a Bulls pick (even a 2nd rounder) should be nice.

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      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
        Absolutely think FVV is someone who should be flipped for value right now. I fear if we re-sign him we're in danger of a Terry Rozier (i know it's different because Rozier was an RFA) type situation where we have to pay starter money to a guy who probably would be one of the worst starting PGs in the league (he's one of the best backups though if not the best).

        I really think we should be trying to move FVV, Lowry, Ibaka and Gasol's expirings for bad deals that end in 2020-21 and draft picks/prospects. Ideally the only guys you have on the books going into that summer are Pascal, OG and whatever rookie scale guys we draft. Would be nice to get a high pick before then though so we have hopefully 2+ young all-stars (Pascal and the up and coming rookie/sophomore) and OG to pitch to potential free agents.
        Yep, sell high on FVV while the championship aura still surrounds him. Especially since FVV completely flopped as a defacto backup PG last year. He can't be a PG initating offense and elevating bench players. He's best suited to an off-ball SG postiion alongside a couple of starter quality players with hopefully one small opposition backcourt player to guard.

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        • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
          Absolutely think FVV is someone who should be flipped for value right now. I fear if we re-sign him we're in danger of a Terry Rozier (i know it's different because Rozier was an RFA) type situation where we have to pay starter money to a guy who probably would be one of the worst starting PGs in the league (he's one of the best backups though if not the best).

          I really think we should be trying to move FVV, Lowry, Ibaka and Gasol's expirings for bad deals that end in 2020-21 and draft picks/prospects. Ideally the only guys you have on the books going into that summer are Pascal, OG and whatever rookie scale guys we draft. Would be nice to get a high pick before then though so we have hopefully 2+ young all-stars (Pascal and the up and coming rookie/sophomore) and OG to pitch to potential free agents.
          Not too many bad contracts ending in 2021 that might get you a pick/prospect combo either. Worse contract ending in 2021 is probably Batum's.. but Hornets are tanking themselves now. They'll want a pick back for him not give one up.

          Hayward could be an option but Ainge I think loves him.. he'll want to win the trade.

          Hardaway Jr could be an option too.. Dallas may make a move to "win now" depending on how close they are to 8th seed by the deadline. Would they want Gasol or Serge maybe? He's a guy I would target.

          Dieng is another option. Maybe Lowry for Dieng and Teague (who also expires this summer)? Would suck to move Lowry to a team in Minnesota though.

          After Dieng we get into contracts worth less than $15M a year.. so makes trades more difficult to complete for our large expirings.

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          • golden wrote: View Post

            Yep, sell high on FVV while the championship aura still surrounds him. Especially since FVV completely flopped as a defacto backup PG last year. He can't be a PG initating offense and elevating bench players. He's best suited to an off-ball SG postiion alongside a couple of starter quality players with hopefully one small opposition backcourt player to guard.
            What does "sell high" mean? What is "value right now"? What are people expecting back for a one year rental of FVV? And what are the odds that return nets you a player as good as FVV? Is what you are getting back more valuable than having FVV next year?

            Trading FVV could happen but it wouldn't be keeping within the methodology of this management team at all. I just don't view this team as a seller now or at the deadline.

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            • planetmars wrote: View Post


              Fred made 16 threes against the Warriors.
              Just wanted to remember this.

              Read an article that was wondering where the Raptors 3pt shooting was going to come from this season. Dan came up with a nice list of 3 pt shooters. Gasol (after the Raptors Trade) shot near 40%. Powell shot 40%. Freddy shot around 37% I think. Kyle shot his career average. Pascal and Serge were the only guys shooting less than 33%. I'm thinking things will be okay.

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              • slaw wrote: View Post

                What does "sell high" mean? What is "value right now"? What are people expecting back for a one year rental of FVV? And what are the odds that return nets you a player as good as FVV? Is what you are getting back more valuable than having FVV next year?

                Trading FVV could happen but it wouldn't be keeping within the methodology of this management team at all. I just don't view this team as a seller now or at the deadline.
                Amen to that. Key question here "What are people expecting back for a one year rental of FVV?" Everyone says he isn't a backup point guard and is a bad starting PG and is too small to play off guard unless he is surrounded by other shooters. So who is going to give up any worthwhile picks for him? Just because Masai has had good fortune dealing with 27th, 46th and one or two undrafted players it doesn't mean he can turn sheep shit into silk. No one is giving up a lottery pick for Fred. Right now he has a role that he fulfills very well. Good shooter and plays great defense, or have we all forgotten the finals already?

                Fortunately, the team is in good hands. I think I will be happy with the decisions the front office makes.

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                • slaw wrote: View Post

                  What does "sell high" mean? What is "value right now"? What are people expecting back for a one year rental of FVV? And what are the odds that return nets you a player as good as FVV? Is what you are getting back more valuable than having FVV next year?

                  Trading FVV could happen but it wouldn't be keeping within the methodology of this management team at all. I just don't view this team as a seller now or at the deadline.
                  Well, there's the question, right? If they are going to have FVV next year, they will need to give him a long term contract. If his market is strong, that might be a sizable long term contract. And if they have plans for 2021 free agency, that sizable long term contract might be counterproductive. Which means, if their planning already indicates that they can't re-sign FVV to the deal he will want, you are losing nothing by trading him now or at the deadline.

                  The intention is not necessarily to get a player as good as FVV (though, with Masai, who knows). It's to get something of value in return, rather than hold onto a player as good as FVV at a price that is likely beyond his value, while losing flexibility long term, or let him walk for nothing.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • Puffer wrote: View Post

                    Amen to that. Key question here "What are people expecting back for a one year rental of FVV?" Everyone says he isn't a backup point guard and is a bad starting PG and is too small to play off guard unless he is surrounded by other shooters. So who is going to give up any worthwhile picks for him? Just because Masai has had good fortune dealing with 27th, 46th and one or two undrafted players it doesn't mean he can turn sheep shit into silk. No one is giving up a lottery pick for Fred. Right now he has a role that he fulfills very well. Good shooter and plays great defense, or have we all forgotten the finals already?

                    Fortunately, the team is in good hands. I think I will be happy with the decisions the front office makes.
                    100%, Fred is fantastic in the role he is in.

                    Come next summer, he's going to have a market to sign for significant money and go be the starting PG somewhere, precisely because of all the success he's had in a smaller role. That's the sort of young player teams love to make bets on. And we've seen that unless he makes a significant leap this year, he is simply not capable of having success in such a role. But he's getting it somewhere, in all likelihood (unless he makes the opposite of a leap this year). And it can't be here.

                    If Fred wants to stay here on an MLE sized deal for the rest of his career and play bench shooter, great. I don't think that's what Fred wants though.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • DanH wrote: View Post

                      Well, there's the question, right? If they are going to have FVV next year, they will need to give him a long term contract. If his market is strong, that might be a sizable long term contract. And if they have plans for 2021 free agency, that sizable long term contract might be counterproductive. Which means, if their planning already indicates that they can't re-sign FVV to the deal he will want, you are losing nothing by trading him now or at the deadline.

                      The intention is not necessarily to get a player as good as FVV (though, with Masai, who knows). It's to get something of value in return, rather than hold onto a player as good as FVV at a price that is likely beyond his value, while losing flexibility long term, or let him walk for nothing.
                      Bottom-line is I don't want to be paying FVV 15M/year for 4 years unless he proves that he can replace like 80% of what Lowry brings as a PG. Otherwise, that's an overpay for a matchup dependent, teammate dependent, undersized catch & shoot SG with scrappy defense. I think they're hoping Terrence Davis can replace what Fred currently brings, if he leaves or is traded.

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post

                        100%, Fred is fantastic in the role he is in.

                        Come next summer, he's going to have a market to sign for significant money and go be the starting PG somewhere, precisely because of all the success he's had in a smaller role. That's the sort of young player teams love to make bets on. And we've seen that unless he makes a significant leap this year, he is simply not capable of having success in such a role. But he's getting it somewhere, in all likelihood (unless he makes the opposite of a leap this year). And it can't be here.

                        If Fred wants to stay here on an MLE sized deal for the rest of his career and play bench shooter, great. I don't think that's what Fred wants though.
                        Well, can't argue with any of that. He would have to improve significantly for the Raptors to keep him I guess. And the improvement would have to look sustainable.

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                        • FVV must be looking at Brogdon’s contract and thinking that might be a comparable. That’s high for my taste but I’m sure his agent was happy to see Brogdon sign for $80 million.

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                          • $15m/yr for FVV is pretty reasonable, that's Eric Gordon/Brandon Knight/Dennis Schroder level money.

                            I think Masai's likely to keep one max spot open for 2021, do you really think he'll clear the decks any more than that? It's a huge risk to clear the roster for FA's when you're in Toronto. Could easily backfire, the more teams do this to chase FA's the more teams we see getting burned every summer.
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                            • S.R. wrote: View Post
                              $15m/yr for FVV is pretty reasonable, that's Eric Gordon/Brandon Knight/Dennis Schroder level money.

                              I think Masai's likely to keep one max spot open for 2021, do you really think he'll clear the decks any more than that? It's a huge risk to clear the roster for FA's when you're in Toronto. Could easily backfire, the more teams do this to chase FA's the more teams we see getting burned every summer.
                              Eric Gordon, maybe and he makes only 13M this year. But still Gordon is a more dynamic scorer than FVV and can carry a relatively high usage if needed, in addition to being an excellent 3 point shooter. FVV can't carry a high usage and looks like an injury waiting to happen on every foray to the rim. He's basically just a spot-up shooter.

                              Knight and Schroeder @ 15M/year is just bad GM'ing. That's not a comparable you want to be following.

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                              • golden wrote: View Post

                                Eric Gordon, maybe and he makes only 13M this year. But still Gordon is a more dynamic scorer than FVV and can carry a relatively high usage if needed, in addition to being an excellent 3 point shooter. FVV can't carry a high usage and looks like an injury waiting to happen on every foray to the rim. He's basically just a spot-up shooter.

                                Knight and Schroeder @ 15M/year is just bad GM'ing. That's not a comparable you want to be following.
                                Going ballpark here obviously, Gordon will make $14m, Shroder $15.5m, and Bledsoe $15.6 in 19/20.

                                Going up from there to $19m you see guys like Teague, Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Gary Harris...probably the only thing that differentiates guys like that from Fred at this point is they're generally starters and he's still a bench guy. Would Fred be starting by now in Minnesota or Detroit? Probably.

                                Of everybody just listed from $14-19m, I'd rather have Fred @ $15m than most of them. Whether or not Masai will want to do that or read the tea leaves on summer 2021 is another question.
                                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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