Everything VanVleet

[chris]

Yep, I understand the "greater fool theory" of free markets. The Charlotte Hornets are the Charlotte Hornets because they overpay guys like Rozier. The goal is not to be like the Charlotte Hornets. That's going backwards to the Bryan Colangelo era.

have you warmed up to pascal's contract yet or are you still fretting we just paid otto porter?

[The Great One]

All these years and people are still underrating VV? remember all the Wright > VV bullshit? lol. I watched part of the Mavs game last night, Wright looked as clueless as always. Still can't shoot!

No way they let VV go. Lowry is under contract for one more year. If the plan is to re-sign him after next year then sure, move VV for assets. If not, then they gotta keep VV at all cost. Who's gonna play the point?

[golden]

All these years and people are still underrating VV? remember all the Wright > VV bullshit? lol. I watched part of the Mavs game last night, Wright looked as clueless as always. Still can't shoot!

No way they let VV go. Lowry is under contract for one more year. If the plan is to re-sign him after next year then sure, move VV for assets. If not, then they gotta keep VV at all cost. Who's gonna play the point?

"At all costs?" There it is, yet again. If anything, FVV is getting over-rated to the point of people basically wanting to tie up unlimited amounts of cap-space in the future for what FVV did in the Finals last season, while overlooking any negatives whatsoever.

The discussion here is not about under-rating FVV, it's about how much to pay him and if that still allows us to keep a max slot open for the huge FA class of 2021. I think $14-18M/yr range seems fair, but not sure if he accepts that, or if that keep the max slot open. If other teams want to be stupid and pay him $25M/year for 4 years, then god bless you, FVV.... your bet paid off huge. Nobody is irreplaceable, especially not a 6-1 point guard.

[The Great One]

"At all costs?" There it is, yet again. If anything, FVV is getting over-rated to the point of people basically wanting to tie up unlimited amounts of cap-space in the future for what FVV did in the Finals last season, while overlooking any negatives whatsoever.

The discussion here is not about under-rating FVV, it's about how much to pay him and if that still allows us to keep a max slot open for the huge FA class of 2021. I think $14-18M/yr range seems fair, but not sure if he accepts that, or if that keep the max slot open. If other teams want to be stupid and pay him $25M/year for 4 years, then god bless you, FVV.... your bet paid off huge. Nobody is irreplaceable, especially not a 6-1 point guard.

I ask this again, if they trade Lowry or just let him walk after next year. And you're not willing to pay VV, who's gonna be the starting PG in 21-22 season?

[DanH]

I ask this again, if they trade Lowry or just let him walk after next year. And you're not willing to pay VV, who's gonna be the starting PG in 21-22 season?

Well obviously if FVV walks they'd try to keep Lowry, unless they went hunting for a big name PG in free agency in 2021 (assuming the Giannis gambit fails, because let's face it, who needs a PG with both Giannis and Pascal?).

[golden]

I ask this again, if they trade Lowry or just let him walk after next year. And you're not willing to pay VV, who's gonna be the starting PG in 21-22 season?

There are always PGs available on the market via FA or trade. Look at how many PGs moved this off-season. I mean, even the lowly Suns just picked up Ricky Rubio for $17M/yr and he's been a big part of turning things around this season. Rubio is an established starting PG and a decent comp to where FVV "wants" to be, so $17M/year would be more than fair.

Not sure who is available in 2021, but if Lowry has anything left in the tank, the Raps could re-sign him and go over the cap, since he's their own FA. They could also sign a 2020 free agent PG at a high value on 1-year deals, like the Sixers did with JJ Redick. They could also trade for a PG whose contract expires in 2021, like Jrue Holiday, since the Pelicans appear to have a surplus of PGs.

[The Great One]

There are always PGs available on the market via FA or trade. Look at how many PGs moved this off-season. I mean, even the lowly Suns just picked up Ricky Rubio for $17M/yr and he's been a big part of turning things around this season. Rubio is an established starting PG and a decent comp to where FVV "wants" to be, so $17M/year would be more than fair.

Not sure who is available in 2021, but if Lowry has anything left in the tank, the Raps could re-sign him and go over the cap, since he's their own FA. They could also sign a 2020 free agent PG at a high value on 1-year deals, like the Sixers did with JJ Redick. They could also trade for a PG whose contract expires in 2021, like Jrue Holiday, since the Pelicans appear to have a surplus of PGs.

PG is the most important position in today's game.

The Raptors have been around for 25 years. They've had TWO legit NBA starting caliber PG's in 25 years. 1. Damon Stoudamire and 2. Kyle Lowry. That's it. VV is looking like the next one. People talk like it's so easy to find one. Rubio? come on man.

The ONLY way i'll be ok to trading/not re-signing VV is if they re-sign Lowry. The Raptors can't afford to lose both.

[golden]

PG is the most important position in today's game.

The Raptors have been around for 25 years. They've had TWO legit NBA starting caliber PG's in 25 years. 1. Damon Stoudamire and 2. Kyle Lowry. That's it. VV is looking like the next one. People talk like it's so easy to find one. Rubio? come on man.

The ONLY way i'll be ok to trading/not re-signing VV is if they re-sign Lowry. The Raptors can't afford to lose both.

So you're basically saying that the Lakers and Clippers have no chance to make the Finals this year?

[The Great One]

So you're basically saying that the Lakers and Clippers have no chance to make the Finals this year?

Dude, the Lakers have LeBron James, he's basically their PG lol.

Pat Bev is good enough when you have Paul George and Kawhi on your team.

[golden]

Dude, the Lakers have LeBron James, he's basically their PG lol.

Pat Bev is good enough when you have Paul George and Kawhi on your team.

Giannis + Siakam (by 2021) will be better than Paul George + Kawhi.... who will both be breaking down continuously.

You're basically agreeing with me, i.e., don't eff up the 2021 cap-space by paying FVV "at all costs".

[The Great One]

Giannis + Siakam (by 2021) will be better than Paul George + Kawhi.... who will both be breaking down continuously.

You're basically agreeing with me, i.e., don't eff up the 2021 cap-space by paying FVV "at all costs".

If your reasoning is "we can afford to lose both VV and Lowry because Giannis is coming here in 2021" then thank god you're not the GM.

Giannis is like a pipedream. This is like Kevin Durant all over again. 'Durant was a Raptor fan growing up' 'Durant is good friends with Drake' so he's signing for sure. The Raptors didn't even get a meeting when Durant was a free agent a couple of years ago.

[golden]

If your reasoning is "we can afford to lose both VV and Lowry because Giannis is coming here in 2021" then thank god you're not the GM.

Giannis is like a pipedream. This is like Kevin Durant all over again. 'Durant was a Raptor fan growing up' 'Durant is good friends with Drake' so he's signing for sure. The Raptors didn't even get a meeting when Durant was a free agent a couple of years ago.

Winning the championship last year by trading the best player in franchise history for an injured player who would NEVER report here (your words) was an even bigger pipedream. How'd that work out for ya?

Regardless, if this franchise wants to be legit, then we at least have to be at the big boys poker table when it comes to signing marquee free agents. That's the one thing we haven't demonstrated yet. Masai has stated boldly that he wants to change that narrative... and who is going to doubt that man's proclamations ever again?

So if we're cashing all our chips on FVV because we're panicked that we have only 1 possible option to fill a starting PG position (the highest supply position in the NBA) with an average starter 2 years from now, then I don't know. Asset retention that you can flip later, I can fully understand, but overpaying because you're just panicking is not good GM'ing. Regardless, whichever way Masai wants to go, I'm good with it. He does have a bit of a history of overpaying his own, though.

[inthepaint]

The cleanest way to do this imo is to try to salary dump Norm at this coming trade deadline, clearing an extra 10M off 2021, thereby giving more flexibility to retain VV and still have the max slot for 2021

The way to get Norm off the books for 2021 would be to trade him from someone like Henson from the Cavs or OKC Roberson (both of which make the same as Norm, but will expire in 2020). Not sure if that would affect the cap at all (hopefully not), but OG is a RFA in 2021

So the line I would draw for the FVV payday would be the one allowing for
1. preserving the 2021 max slot
2. preserving OG

Don't know where that line would be with and without Norm on books, but maybe one of out resident cap gurus would know?

A core of FVV + Davis + OG + Siakam + high end Max FA, would be a finals caliber team in the 2021/2022 season.

[planetmars]

The cleanest way to do this imo is to try to salary dump Norm at this coming trade deadline, clearing an extra 10M off 2021, thereby giving more flexibility to retain VV and still have the max slot for 2021

The way to get Norm off the books for 2021 would be to trade him from someone like Henson from the Cavs or OKC Roberson (both of which make the same as Norm, but will expire in 2020). Not sure if that would affect the cap at all (hopefully not), but OG is a RFA in 2021

So the line I would draw for the FVV payday would be the one allowing for
1. preserving the 2021 max slot
2. preserving OG

Don't know where that line would be with and without Norm on books, but maybe one of out resident cap gurus would know?

A core of FVV + Davis + OG + Siakam + high end Max FA, would be a finals caliber team in the 2021/2022 season.

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator is a great tool for playing with a team's payroll/cap if you want to have fun. Some things are not completely accurate. Siakam and Lowry's extensions for example were not done yet.

But you could sort of mimic those and take a look at the situation.

Problem is that in 2021 the team is decimated. The only contracts on the books are Siakam's, Norm's, Matt's and Dewan's. OG has a small cap hold of like $11.6M. But we'd have no center depth. So yeah we could give Fred a lot of money, but the stuff we don't give him can be used to fill out our depth.

I'm personally just going to let Masai and Bobby do their thing and sit back and watch. I have no idea how it's all going to unfold just yet.

[inthepaint]

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator is a great tool for playing with a team's payroll/cap if you want to have fun. Some things are not completely accurate. Siakam and Lowry's extensions for example were not done yet.

But you could sort of mimic those and take a look at the situation.

Problem is that in 2021 the team is decimated. The only contracts on the books are Siakam's, Norm's, Matt's and Dewan's. OG has a small cap hold of like $11.6M. But we'd have no center depth. So yeah we could give Fred a lot of money, but the stuff we don't give him can be used to fill out our depth.

I'm personally just going to let Masai and Bobby do their thing and sit back and watch. I have no idea how it's all going to unfold just yet.

Thanks for the link, will check it out later; a lot of his next contract will be driven by his next playoff performance, so it's hard to say at this point. I wouldn't splurge on FVV either, but there could be things done at the trade deadline in Feb that could help us in 2021.

As far as depth, I think Bobby/Masai have shown they can create depth almost out thin air by carefully developing homegrown talent and finding late/undrafted talent (by then someone like Brisset will be a key rotation piece and we'll be like "how does he keep finding these guys?!")

The main challenge will be to build/retain a strong core/starting 5. You add a max free agent to a core of VV/Davis/OG/Siakam though, that's a very strong team