Everything VanVleet

[The Claw Reborn]

We didn't really run PnR with Kyle either even though Kyle was better at it.

Boo you, I strongly suggest you should do more research before you make absolute statements like this….

Nick Nurse run 7.5% pick and roll plays (top 4) during their Championship year with Lowry as the primary guard and Van Vleet as the bench guy

Fast forward to today, Raptors are bottom 4 in the league in Pick n Roll plays (4.4% frequency).



Your statement above should apply more to the Warriors and Steve Kerr who seldom uses PnR plays ever since.


that being said….Nick Nurse is a very innovative coach but he is only as good as his top Ward on the floor.

Van Vleet just does not have skills to consistently and perfectly do it.

[golden]

Over Lowry's final 7 seasons (so starting from his first all star season, leaving out his first two years here) with the Raptors, Lowry averaged a 31.4 AST% and 14.7 TOV%. He scored 18.4 points per game on a 52.6 eFG% and 23.3 USG%.

Fred is putting up a 27.5 AST% and 15.2 TOV% this year. He is scoring 19.4 PPG on a 52.9 eFG% and 22.9 USG%.

Now, yeah, I think Fred has some room for improvement with the assist/TO ratio, but not by a lot, to pretty much replicate Lowry's raw numbers.

I am extremely impressed Fred is even in the ballpark there, considering where he started from with his playmaking, and although he is still most lethal as an off ball threat (the same role the Raptors rather loved to slide Lowry into more and more later in his career here), he's become pretty good on that front.

Even specifically for involving the roll man, 26% of Fred's assists this year have been to Precious and Birch, not a single one of them a three. Khem has received 16 assists from Fred - and no more than 5 from anyone else. Same story for Precious - 16 from Fred, 8 from Barnes, no more than 4 from anyone else. Heck, if Precious could finish a lob to save his life those numbers may look even nicer (though Khem is basically automatic on feeds from Fred, 16 for 24 off Fred passes, so he's finding him in his spots at least).

Lowry was much more than raw numbers, though. In his prime, he had an uncanny ability to elevate scrubs, er...role players into a winning combination, regardless of what assortment of randoms you put out there. Lowry + Bench was a staple for years.

No complaints about what FVV is doing individually this year with his raw numbers, but Lowry's ability to translate his play into wins is the biggest difference. We also broke in a bunch of rookies (including Fred) on Lowry's watch.

[LJ2]

Lowry was much more than raw numbers, though. In his prime, he had an uncanny ability to elevate scrubs, er...role players into a winning combination, regardless of what assortment of randoms you put out there. Lowry + Bench was a staple for years.

No complaints about what FVV is doing individually this year with his raw numbers, but Lowry's ability to translate his play into wins is the biggest difference. We also broke in a bunch of rookies (including Fred) on Lowry's watch.

That was a part of Lowry's game that came with age and experience. FVV is just now really coming into his own at I believe a similar age as Lowry.

[A.I]

That was a part of Lowry's game that came with age and experience. FVV is just now really coming into his own at I believe a similar age as Lowry.

Kyle really started to get better as a player at 27, same age as Fred is now. Before 27, Kyle never averaged above 15 points. He became an All star at 28.

Fred has gotten better this season too. We'll see how much he continues to improve.

[The Claw Reborn]

at age 27….nah I am not buying that shit.

Per 100 possessions

                                                                                      
Player          Age  FGA  FG%  3PA  3P%  2PA  2P%  FT% TRB  AST STL TOV  PTS ORtg DRtg
Kyle Lowry       27 19.7 .423  9.1 .380 10.6 .460 .813 6.7 10.7 2.2 3.5 25.9  118  106
Fred VanVleet    27 21.4 .440 10.7 .393 10.7 .488 .847 6.6  8.5 2.2 4.1 26.3  113  112

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 11/29/2021.


Advanced

                                                                                    
Player          Age  PER  TS% TRB% AST% STL% TOV% USG%   WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
Kyle Lowry       27 20.1 .567  7.5 34.7  2.2 13.4 22.9 11.7  .197  4.1  0.6 4.7  4.8
Fred VanVleet    27 18.5 .569  7.2 26.6  2.2 15.1 23.3  1.9  .122  2.7  0.0 2.7  0.9

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 11/29/2021.

[DanH]

Lowry was much more than raw numbers, though. In his prime, he had an uncanny ability to elevate scrubs, er...role players into a winning combination, regardless of what assortment of randoms you put out there. Lowry + Bench was a staple for years.

No complaints about what FVV is doing individually this year with his raw numbers, but Lowry's ability to translate his play into wins is the biggest difference. We also broke in a bunch of rookies (including Fred) on Lowry's watch.

Yeah, it's not like the Raptors are having a whole pile of success with Fred on the court this year and struggling like hell to stay afloat when he sits, unlike Lowry...

What's that you say? The Raptors have a +3 net rating while Fred is on the court (best on the team among major minute players)? And a -13 net rating while he sits (worst on the team full stop - by TEN points!!!)? A 16 point swing, by far the biggest swing on the team (again, non-Yuta small sample division)? Huh, what a weird crazy happenstance.

You'd think that would show up in the advanced impact stats that try to evaluate how a player drives winning, like 538's RAPTOR, where Fred is only ranked... 4th in the league, huh. Probably a one-off, EPM only has him top 8 in estimated wins added. I guess top 8 is pretty good.

Anyone else can sit and we are OK. Fred sits and nothing works. Sounds an awful lot like Lowry to me.

Like, two years ago I couldn't imagine even hoping for this level of success from Fred reproducing what Lowry did for us for so long. We should be signing his praises that he's managed this, it's pretty amazing.

[golden]

Yeah, it's not like the Raptors are having a whole pile of success with Fred on the court this year and struggling like hell to stay afloat when he sits, unlike Lowry...

What's that you say? The Raptors have a +3 net rating while Fred is on the court (best on the team among major minute players)? And a -13 net rating while he sits (worst on the team full stop - by TEN points!!!)? A 16 point swing, by far the biggest swing on the team (again, non-Yuta small sample division)? Huh, what a weird crazy happenstance.

You'd think that would show up in the advanced impact stats that try to evaluate how a player drives winning, like 538's RAPTOR, where Fred is only ranked... 4th in the league, huh. Probably a one-off, EPM only has him top 8 in estimated wins added. I guess top 8 is pretty good.

Anyone else can sit and we are OK. Fred sits and nothing works. Sounds an awful lot like Lowry to me.

Like, two years ago I couldn't imagine even hoping for this level of success from Fred reproducing what Lowry did for us for so long. We should be signing his praises that he's managed this, it's pretty amazing.

lol. Tremendous cherry pick there. First off, BBREF shows Fred's on-court net rating being only +1.9. That's meh... and nowhere near Lowry, who (other than Tampa) was had an on-court net rating seasons: of +4.8, +3.6, +6.6, +8.2, +7.7, +11.2 & +6.5, starting in 2013-14.

And you need to take on/off ratings with a grain of salt. Didn't you learn anything from the Patrick Patterson / Luis Scola days? On/off is highly dependent upon the combination the coach throws out there when the player in question is "off". Nurse is having yet another tough year developing a competent bench unit, despite he himself saying in pre-season that he felt this team was deep... as did most people around here. The other problem is that Nurse has been trying to use Pascal to prop up the bench in non-Fred minutes, and he's had some really bad runs. Context. .

I mean, sure you can make some type of argument that Fred is "elevating" the team... from bottom 3 to bottom 8. But it's laughable to compare Fred's level of elevation to what Lowry accomplished for years. The fact is that the current team is built around Fred's strengths & limitations whereas Lowry had a broader ability to adapt to the players around him and make them better - which is readily reflected in Lowry's much more impressive net ratings

[GOLDBLUM]

That's a ... pretty depressing chart. Thanks for that.

[KeonClark]

lol. Tremendous cherry pick there. First off, BBREF shows Fred's on-court net rating being only +1.9. That's meh... and nowhere near Lowry, who (other than Tampa) was had an on-court net rating seasons: of +4.8, +3.6, +6.6, +8.2, +7.7, +11.2 & +6.5, starting in 2013-14.

And you need to take on/off ratings with a grain of salt. Didn't you learn anything from the Patrick Patterson / Luis Scola days? On/off is highly dependent upon the combination the coach throws out there when the player in question is "off". Nurse is having yet another tough year developing a competent bench unit, despite he himself saying in pre-season that he felt this team was deep... as did most people around here. The other problem is that Nurse has been trying to use Pascal to prop up the bench in non-Fred minutes, and he's had some really bad runs. Context. .

I mean, sure you can make some type of argument that Fred is "elevating" the team... from bottom 3 to bottom 8. But it's laughable to compare Fred's level of elevation to what Lowry accomplished for years. The fact is that the current team is built around Fred's strengths & limitations whereas Lowry had a broader ability to adapt to the players around him and make them better - which is readily reflected in Lowry's much more impressive net ratings

So to sum it up, as we were a month ago, we're still at the same place. Fred is a very good starting PG, but we're mad because he doesn't elevate as much as the greatest raptor and future hall of famer.

[The Claw Reborn]

lol. Tremendous cherry pick there. First off, BBREF shows Fred's on-court net rating being only +1.9. That's meh... and nowhere near Lowry, who (other than Tampa) was had an on-court net rating seasons: of +4.8, +3.6, +6.6, +8.2, +7.7, +11.2 & +6.5, starting in 2013-14.

And you need to take on/off ratings with a grain of salt. Didn't you learn anything from the Patrick Patterson / Luis Scola days? On/off is highly dependent upon the combination the coach throws out there when the player in question is "off". Nurse is having yet another tough year developing a competent bench unit, despite he himself saying in pre-season that he felt this team was deep... as did most people around here. The other problem is that Nurse has been trying to use Pascal to prop up the bench in non-Fred minutes, and he's had some really bad runs. Context. .

I mean, sure you can make some type of argument that Fred is "elevating" the team... from bottom 3 to bottom 8. But it's laughable to compare Fred's level of elevation to what Lowry accomplished for years. The fact is that the current team is built around Fred's strengths & limitations whereas Lowry had a broader ability to adapt to the players around him and make them better - which is readily reflected in Lowry's much more impressive net ratings

A Toyota is good enough for most, takes them from point A to Point B….MVP ! Lol

[DanH]

lol. Tremendous cherry pick there. First off, BBREF shows Fred's on-court net rating being only +1.9. That's meh... and nowhere near Lowry, who (other than Tampa) was had an on-court net rating seasons: of +4.8, +3.6, +6.6, +8.2, +7.7, +11.2 & +6.5, starting in 2013-14.

And you need to take on/off ratings with a grain of salt. Didn't you learn anything from the Patrick Patterson / Luis Scola days? On/off is highly dependent upon the combination the coach throws out there when the player in question is "off". Nurse is having yet another tough year developing a competent bench unit, despite he himself saying in pre-season that he felt this team was deep... as did most people around here. The other problem is that Nurse has been trying to use Pascal to prop up the bench in non-Fred minutes, and he's had some really bad runs. Context. .

I mean, sure you can make some type of argument that Fred is "elevating" the team... from bottom 3 to bottom 8. But it's laughable to compare Fred's level of elevation to what Lowry accomplished for years. The fact is that the current team is built around Fred's strengths & limitations whereas Lowry had a broader ability to adapt to the players around him and make them better - which is readily reflected in Lowry's much more impressive net ratings

Recommend you use NBA.com's stats rather than BBall-ref, it's more accurate (possession counting instead of estimating).

https://www.nba.com/stats/team/16106...T_RATING&dir=1

He's +3.0 per 100. But that's irrelevant. The net rating numbers are a measure of the team overall, not the player. The on/off gives you the relative impact of the individual player.

The thing I learned from the Patterson/Scola days is we threw away a season starting Scola. If you learned something else you learned the wrong thing.

Yes, on/offs are highly dependent on combinations and opponents! I wonder why I included some advanced impact stats that bend over backwards to filter out those effects! Who could say!

Lowry was great. Incredible. But he had better and more experienced teams to work with after those first couple seasons of positive impact (where his on-court team performance was very much in line with Fred's current on-court team performance). Net rating is a team stat. The teams were better (and older, more experienced, and largely healthier, which helps). Hence the higher net rating.

I mean, it's laughable to compare Fred's couple years of impact to Lowry's 7 years, because 2 years is not 7. I agree with that part. But Fred's impact on the team is in every measurable way actually way more comparable to what Lowry did than any of us had any right to dream, and I can't believe the conversation on here is not about how awesome that is and instead is just people crying that he's not already the new GROAT. This even being a discussion is amazing development from Fred, no?

[golden]

Recommend you use NBA.com's stats rather than BBall-ref, it's more accurate (possession counting instead of estimating).

https://www.nba.com/stats/team/16106...T_RATING&dir=1

He's +3.0 per 100. But that's irrelevant. The net rating numbers are a measure of the team overall, not the player. The on/off gives you the relative impact of the individual player.

The thing I learned from the Patterson/Scola days is we threw away a season starting Scola. If you learned something else you learned the wrong thing.

Yes, on/offs are highly dependent on combinations and opponents! I wonder why I included some advanced impact stats that bend over backwards to filter out those effects! Who could say!

Lowry was great. Incredible. But he had better and more experienced teams to work with after those first couple seasons of positive impact (where his on-court team performance was very much in line with Fred's current on-court team performance). Net rating is a team stat. The teams were better (and older, more experienced, and largely healthier, which helps). Hence the higher net rating.

I mean, it's laughable to compare Fred's couple years of impact to Lowry's 7 years, because 2 years is not 7. I agree with that part. But Fred's impact on the team is in every measurable way actually way more comparable to what Lowry did than any of us had any right to dream, and I can't believe the conversation on here is not about how awesome that is and instead is just people crying that he's not already the new GROAT. This even being a discussion is amazing development from Fred, no?

The main thing I learned about On/Off stats from 2Pat/Scola was: (1) Be on the court when Scola is Off and Lowry is On & (2) Don't overrate players using On/Off stats. This shall henceforth be known as: The 2Pat axiom.

And all advanced stats based on plus/minus, like RAPTOR, are still pretty noisy at this point in the season... surely you know that.

No complaints about Fred from over here, btw. I'm just replying to the Lowry comparison, which is odd.

[The Claw Reborn]

lol. Tremendous cherry pick there. First off, BBREF shows Fred's on-court net rating being only +1.9. That's meh... and nowhere near Lowry, who (other than Tampa) was had an on-court net rating seasons: of +4.8, +3.6, +6.6, +8.2, +7.7, +11.2 & +6.5, starting in 2013-14.

And you need to take on/off ratings with a grain of salt. Didn't you learn anything from the Patrick Patterson / Luis Scola days? On/off is highly dependent upon the combination the coach throws out there when the player in question is "off". Nurse is having yet another tough year developing a competent bench unit, despite he himself saying in pre-season that he felt this team was deep... as did most people around here. The other problem is that Nurse has been trying to use Pascal to prop up the bench in non-Fred minutes, and he's had some really bad runs. Context. .

I mean, sure you can make some type of argument that Fred is "elevating" the team... from bottom 3 to bottom 8. But it's laughable to compare Fred's level of elevation to what Lowry accomplished for years. The fact is that the current team is built around Fred's strengths & limitations whereas Lowry had a broader ability to adapt to the players around him and make them better - which is readily reflected in Lowry's much more impressive net ratings

I am not sure what the position estimate meant? By looking on that chart….VanVleet is 95% PG and 5%SG….though his field goal attempts are more of a Shooting Guard than a Point Guard.

[KeonClark]

Add: Loves Toronto, hard worker, leadership qualities, clutch gene. Lucky to have him.

[The Claw Reborn]

Of the 10 Hail Marys, 2 were PnR….wrong video lol