Everything VanVleet

[KeonClark]

Fred chucking shots isn't a good example to our young guys.
He sure has that alpha mentality, just can't back it up.

Scottie can be the leader this team needs.
And sometimes great players look elsewhere for mentorship, like what Gary Payton did to Giannis.

Where do we get this idea that he can't "back it up"? He got a finals MVP vote in 2019, he had a great playoffs in 2020. This year he was clearly injured as fuck, but some of you will conveniently ignore that because there may be a bias towards not liking him in the first place.

[planetmars]

I value lockerroom stuff. I think Scottie has already stepped up A LOT as a lockerroom guy. He is very vocal on the floor as a communicator. Thad is also a vet.

I will just reiterate I think that Fred is good but I just want him on this team on a different role. My desire to trade him is an IF. It hinges on whether or not he would accept a different role. If he is willing to accept then I am 100% for it.

Fred is already primarily an off ball guy.. and was especially once Pascal got healthy and was taking over as the PG. The team runs lots of different sets and there will be opportunities for Fred to initiate, but that's not his sole responsibility now. It's shared. Scottie/Pascal and Fred all share that responsibility.

Fred is more than just a locker room guy. He's the face of the organization. He was playing coach in Tampa and again when he got hurt. He's the last name called when they do the starters. He's the guy with the mic in his hand when talking to the crowd. He's the guy that media go to for quotes.

Masai traded the face of the organization before, but it wasn't a smooth hand off. Whether his on court performance deserves it or not, he's going to be handled with kid gloves.. just like Kyle was. That's really the truth of it.

[Kagemusha]

Where do we get this idea that he can't "back it up"? He got a finals MVP vote in 2019, he had a great playoffs in 2020. This year he was clearly injured as fuck, but some of you will conveniently ignore that because there may be a bias towards not liking him in the first place.

Thanks for stating it.
He was injured yet he's still chucking.
I like Fred, I admire his passion and his story is amazing, but I hope he gets to realize his true strengths and weaknesses.

I only wanted to trade Fred if we can get better players. It's not like we desperately has to trade him

[KeonClark]

Fred is already primarily an off ball guy.. and was especially once Pascal got healthy and was taking over as the PG. The team runs lots of different sets and there will be opportunities for Fred to initiate, but that's not his sole responsibility now. It's shared. Scottie/Pascal and Fred all share that responsibility.

Fred is more than just a locker room guy. He's the face of the organization. He was playing coach in Tampa and again when he got hurt. He's the last name called when they do the starters. He's the guy with the mic in his hand when talking to the crowd. He's the guy that media go to for quotes.

Masai traded the face of the organization before, but it wasn't a smooth hand off. Whether his on court performance deserves it or not, he's going to be handled with kid gloves.. just like Kyle was. That's really the truth of it.

Yeah, I think some people just wanna see big changes because we're not yet a title contender, but I don't think we need to trade Fred. I know 'If ifs and buts were candy and nuts..." but, IF Fred, Scottie and Gary were all healthy this whole series, I think we are literally a better team than Philly. Here's what this team needs going forward to succeed and soar into the 50-55 plus wins territory next year, in order of priority:

1) Continued upward development of all of our under 25 guys

2) Health (every team needs)

3) Better bench and depth to reduce our starters minutes, which in turns helps with #2

[JawsGT]

Fred's not a chucker. He does his job according to how the team wants to play. I doubt there is a single player or coach who thinks he's a chucker. What a joke take on reality.

[slaw]

Fred is already primarily an off ball guy.. and was especially once Pascal got healthy and was taking over as the PG. The team runs lots of different sets and there will be opportunities for Fred to initiate, but that's not his sole responsibility now. It's shared. Scottie/Pascal and Fred all share that responsibility.

Fred is more than just a locker room guy. He's the face of the organization. He was playing coach in Tampa and again when he got hurt. He's the last name called when they do the starters. He's the guy with the mic in his hand when talking to the crowd. He's the guy that media go to for quotes.

Masai traded the face of the organization before, but it wasn't a smooth hand off. Whether his on court performance deserves it or not, he's going to be handled with kid gloves.. just like Kyle was. That's really the truth of it.

Yeah, I don't really understand this "different role" talk. Fred is already off the ball a lot and the Raps offence isn't set up like that anyway (PG, SG, etc.). He's always going to do both. As Barnes matures he will initiate more, Siakam will stay steady and I'm sure they'll want OG and Achiuwa to get their own consistent looks to initiate the offence.

[Apollo]

RJ would be my vote ... fournier is on a bad contract but he plays good enough to contribute on the bench.

Fournier feels like a step back.

[Primer]

So how do you think that might play out if they moved on? Who are they bringing in to replace him?

A starting C who can spread the floor. If Scottie is at PG we don't need to replace Fred with another combo guard.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Fournier feels like a step back.

Fournier is only to make the salaries work honestly.


Off the bench he would be better than any guard options that we currently have now off our bench.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Fred's not a chucker. He does his job according to how the team wants to play. I doubt there is a single player or coach who thinks he's a chucker. What a joke take on reality.

Fred has at times taken shots that are not within the flow of the offense by taking shots 5 seconds into a shot clock. He has not demonstrated the ability to consistently hit guys on the short roll, which would help him a lot. For that reason the ball sometimes sticks a bit too long in his hands as he tries to probe in for an attack. If you look at his role at the beginning of the year versus at the end of the year or even January onward, the coaching staff used Fred a lot more off ball to get him his shots.


Fred is not necessarily a chucker. His best offensive skill is his sniper ability so he should be taking 3 point shots at volume. There is zero question about that. I do not think he should be the primary ball handler making decisions on offense. He can be perhaps 3rd with regards to that but Pascal, and Barnes have displayed that they are better.


Maybe you are directing this comment towards someone else because I am not the only person who feels this way but I may be the only person who is recently voicing my constant opinion about it. Others have suggested much harsher things than me. It isn't about him spacing the floor its about him missing passes in spots and then holding on to the ball after the advantage/mismatch you just created through the pick and roll opportunity has been diminished because you held on to the ball far too long. And for the record I believe it was Stan Van Gundy that mentioned these things as well on the radio. A few other people have as well so to say these big defensive grandiose statements like NO PLAYER OR COACH THINKS THAT because it doesn't fit with how you feel... is just plain incorrect.

Is this team a better team with Fred? Yes, Fred is a talented player. Is Fred in the correct role? I think that is something I don't mind discussing. I think its a fair discussion point. I don't think its just that he hasn't had an opportunity to developthat. Maybe he hasn't but You also have other guys who have developed that and developed it better in a shorter time span or in the same time span and have clear cut physical advantages. That is it.

[TrueTorontoFan]

A starting C who can spread the floor. If Scottie is at PG we don't need to replace Fred with another combo guard.

ding ding ding ding. Again that is why previously I had suggested that we consider or try to trade GTJ for a starting caliber center who can stretch the floor like Turner. Then everyone in the starting five fits into their natural roles a lot more easily. Fred can play the SG. Turner is someone you need to pay contract wise but provides a need at a position of need. OG obviously is a great offensive weapon but he also can spread the floor TODAY. Scottie you expect to get better. If Pascal shoots the same percentage he did then that should be enough shooting.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Thanks for stating it.
He was injured yet he's still chucking.
I like Fred, I admire his passion and his story is amazing, but I hope he gets to realize his true strengths and weaknesses.

I only wanted to trade Fred if we can get better players. It's not like we desperately has to trade him

I don't want to characterize it as chucking. Instead I will say he may want to try to impose his will on the game even though he is physically limited ... or at least in general he wants to have an impact and contribute, and the results are clear.

[JawsGT]

Fred, when healthy, showed me a lot this year that he hadn't in the past. He had improved his decision making in traffic and was improving as a playmaker. Some of the drives and buckets he was making earlier in the season were blocked shots and TOs last season. He isn't a pure point guard of course, far from it, a combo guard at best but maybe more suited as a 2. Nonetheless, there are many SGs in the league that initiate offence and have playmaking responsibility. Fred will always shoulder some of that responsibility on this team, given how we are constructed and that he is one of our better ball handlers and our best off the dribble shooter. I remember not so many years ago, when Lowry started taking deep pull up 3s and some posters thought it was a bad idea, I argued it wasn't because that shot is a weapon now in this league (thanks Steph), and if you have a guy that can drop that shot you would be best served to develop it. Fred has followed in Lowrys footsteps in that regard, and has developed that ability, to the benefit of this team because the defense has to respect it and that opens up the floor a lot.

And with regards to chucking, do folks not remember the first few games of this series when Trent was taking and bricking shots and making airballs? I mean, was that chucking, or does he get a pass cause he had the runs? Fred too, over the last month has been well below 100% when he was in the lineup. But he, like Trent, understands his responsibility and importance to the team. If they get on the court, they are gonna play their best and do what they are expected to do, which is take and make shots and generate offence. Can't fault them for taking pride in their work, especially when most folks would stay home and watch Netflix.

Now does that mean he is infallible? Of course not, he does fail to recognize the pass occasionally out of the PnR and on some of his drives. But this does not mean he is a chucker. I've been watching ball since the end of Jordan's first 3 peat, and I've witnessed my share of chuckers throughout the league, but I'm afraid Fred just doesn't qualify. Does anyone really believe that this coaching staff, this management team, and the rest of the players here would suffer a chucker hi-jacking the offence? That type of shit wouldn't fly on this team IMO.

[Kagemusha]

I don't want to characterize it as chucking. Instead I will say he may want to try to impose his will on the game even though he is physically limited ... or at least in general he wants to have an impact and contribute, and the results are clear.

You just described chucking.

It's not like there's other option on the floor.
How many times did he looked off open players.
And he's not always shooting within the system, there's many times he would shoot from behind the arc very early in the shot clock, or in transition.

[golden]

Where do we get this idea that he can't "back it up"? He got a finals MVP vote in 2019, he had a great playoffs in 2020. This year he was clearly injured as fuck, but some of you will conveniently ignore that because there may be a bias towards not liking him in the first place.

Fred had a terrible playoffs in 2020... what were you watching? The first round vs. the Long Island Nets doesn't actually count. The only guys to show up consistently vs. the Celtics were Lowry & OG. Fred struggled against Boston's length.