Everything VanVleet

[G__Deane]

Freddy evidently out for game 5 and the series. Go make a baby Fred and heal up

[TrueTorontoFan]

Fred, when healthy, showed me a lot this year that he hadn't in the past. He had improved his decision making in traffic and was improving as a playmaker. Some of the drives and buckets he was making earlier in the season were blocked shots and TOs last season. He isn't a pure point guard of course, far from it, a combo guard at best but maybe more suited as a 2. Nonetheless, there are many SGs in the league that initiate offence and have playmaking responsibility. Fred will always shoulder some of that responsibility on this team, given how we are constructed and that he is one of our better ball handlers and our best off the dribble shooter. I remember not so many years ago, when Lowry started taking deep pull up 3s and some posters thought it was a bad idea, I argued it wasn't because that shot is a weapon now in this league (thanks Steph), and if you have a guy that can drop that shot you would be best served to develop it. Fred has followed in Lowrys footsteps in that regard, and has developed that ability, to the benefit of this team because the defense has to respect it and that opens up the floor a lot.

And with regards to chucking, do folks not remember the first few games of this series when Trent was taking and bricking shots and making airballs? I mean, was that chucking, or does he get a pass cause he had the runs? Fred too, over the last month has been well below 100% when he was in the lineup. But he, like Trent, understands his responsibility and importance to the team. If they get on the court, they are gonna play their best and do what they are expected to do, which is take and make shots and generate offence. Can't fault them for taking pride in their work, especially when most folks would stay home and watch Netflix.

Now does that mean he is infallible? Of course not, he does fail to recognize the pass occasionally out of the PnR and on some of his drives. But this does not mean he is a chucker. I've been watching ball since the end of Jordan's first 3 peat, and I've witnessed my share of chuckers throughout the league, but I'm afraid Fred just doesn't qualify. Does anyone really believe that this coaching staff, this management team, and the rest of the players here would suffer a chucker hi-jacking the offence? That type of shit wouldn't fly on this team IMO.

I think Gary is a chucker. Straight up and I have said that for a LONG time. So if you want to put THAT specific statement on me by all means.

"In the season were blocked shots and TOs last season. He isn't a pure point guard of course, far from it, a combo guard at best but maybe more suited as a 2. Nonetheless, there are many SGs in the league that initiate offence and have playmaking responsibility."

So how does that go against what I said? Be specific because I outlined a specific role that still would have Fred as being 3rd from a ball handling standpoint.




"Nonetheless, there are many SGs in the league that initiate offence and have playmaking responsibility." Who and who is doing it with a high degree of success. Specifically a SG?

"Fred has followed in Lowrys footsteps in that regard, and has developed that ability, to the benefit of this team because the defense has to respect it and that opens up the floor a lot."

This is the kind of thing we gotta stop Fred is not Lowry. Just because they are both the similar heights and both play defence well doesn't mean they are identical player types.

"
Now does that mean he is infallible? Of course not, he does fail to recognize the pass occasionally out of the PnR and on some of his drives. But this does not mean he is a chucker."

Where did I equate this with being a chucker. At this point, I will say reread what I wrote because there is a disconnect. Not saying it because I am trying to come across as condescending or rude. I am saying it because you are saying things that I didn't say.




For example:

Fred is not necessarily a chucker. His best offensive skill is his sniper ability so he should be taking 3 point shots at volume. There is zero question about that. I do not think he should be the primary ball handler making decisions on offense. He can be perhaps 3rd with regards to that but Pascal, and Barnes have displayed that they are better.

I even asked you besides saying oh he hasn't been given enough of a chance give me a reason to believe he will be better than the two people that I suggested as a point guard?


Let's not shift goalposts here. You have two guys who are either the same age or younger with better skills in that area than Fred. With better physical tools to have more physical advantages. So if that is the case why should we force Fred into a role that doesn't maximize his skillset?


Or are you talking specifically to Kagemusha and not myself? In which case my bad for interjecting. I have called Fred a straight up chucker at times because he has had games in the past where e has done that. I will say that when I have said that in the past at times it wasn't a completely fully painted picture. So for that I am admitting was wrong in the past. But right now I am saying to maximize his role he may not need to be the number one guy running the offence. He can STILL take the same amount of shots. He can still shoot 20-25 shots a game for all I care. Just get those shots in a better manner and within the flow of the offence more than he has. Because there are times when he has not done that on a consistent basis throughout the year.


"Does anyone really believe that this coaching staff, this management team, and the rest of the players here would suffer a chucker hi-jacking the offence?"
You can have guys who take shots that aren't great looks and have it happen. There are times when Nick has stated as much in press conferences. FVV himself has joked about not taking as long to begin executing plays (suggesting that he was dribbling the ball around for 20 seconds at times) FVV's words not mine. If you REALLY want I can go and grab the interviews and we can analyse it if you truly want although it was from the early part of the season.


So again I ask why is it so offensive and so wrong to suggest that he would be better in a different offensive role to maximize the strengths of this team? Samson Folk said it on the podcast at least 3 times throughout the year as well. Blake Murphy has suggested it at least once this year. There are quite a number of people who have spoken about this in passing just no one has really outlined HEY WHY DONT WE DO THIS in the media because that isn't how media and specifically our media works.

[TrueTorontoFan]

You just described chucking.

It's not like there's other option on the floor.
How many times did he looked off open players.
And he's not always shooting within the system, there's many times he would shoot from behind the arc very early in the shot clock, or in transition.

I don't think it's chucking I am willing to suggest that perhaps there are times (not the early shot clock shots) that he has physical limitations. but that doesn't change my opinion about his role and skill.


The looking off open players though yes it is something that he does do at times.

[grindhouse]

is it safe to say we need a serious upgrade at shooting guard

[Primer]

ding ding ding ding. Again that is why previously I had suggested that we consider or try to trade GTJ for a starting caliber center who can stretch the floor like Turner. Then everyone in the starting five fits into their natural roles a lot more easily. Fred can play the SG. Turner is someone you need to pay contract wise but provides a need at a position of need. OG obviously is a great offensive weapon but he also can spread the floor TODAY. Scottie you expect to get better. If Pascal shoots the same percentage he did then that should be enough shooting.

If we could swap Trent for Turner I don't think anyone here would argue with that trade.

[TrueTorontoFan]

If we could swap Trent for Turner I don't think anyone here would argue with that trade.

There was a time that people would not take that trade even now many would say no. People are coming around to the idea.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Barnes is so strong holy

[TrueTorontoFan]

did the sixers drink before this game?

[Kagemusha]

If we could swap Trent for Turner I don't think anyone here would argue with that trade.

Why would the Pacers do that. Lol
They have tons of SGs.

[JawsGT]

I think Gary is a chucker. Straight up and I have said that for a LONG time. So if you want to put THAT specific statement on me by all means.

"In the season were blocked shots and TOs last season. He isn't a pure point guard of course, far from it, a combo guard at best but maybe more suited as a 2. Nonetheless, there are many SGs in the league that initiate offence and have playmaking responsibility."

So how does that go against what I said? Be specific because I outlined a specific role that still would have Fred as being 3rd from a ball handling standpoint.




"Nonetheless, there are many SGs in the league that initiate offence and have playmaking responsibility." Who and who is doing it with a high degree of success. Specifically a SG?

"Fred has followed in Lowrys footsteps in that regard, and has developed that ability, to the benefit of this team because the defense has to respect it and that opens up the floor a lot."

This is the kind of thing we gotta stop Fred is not Lowry. Just because they are both the similar heights and both play defence well doesn't mean they are identical player types.

"
Now does that mean he is infallible? Of course not, he does fail to recognize the pass occasionally out of the PnR and on some of his drives. But this does not mean he is a chucker."

Where did I equate this with being a chucker. At this point, I will say reread what I wrote because there is a disconnect. Not saying it because I am trying to come across as condescending or rude. I am saying it because you are saying things that I didn't say.




For example:



I even asked you besides saying oh he hasn't been given enough of a chance give me a reason to believe he will be better than the two people that I suggested as a point guard?


Let's not shift goalposts here. You have two guys who are either the same age or younger with better skills in that area than Fred. With better physical tools to have more physical advantages. So if that is the case why should we force Fred into a role that doesn't maximize his skillset?


Or are you talking specifically to Kagemusha and not myself? In which case my bad for interjecting. I have called Fred a straight up chucker at times because he has had games in the past where e has done that. I will say that when I have said that in the past at times it wasn't a completely fully painted picture. So for that I am admitting was wrong in the past. But right now I am saying to maximize his role he may not need to be the number one guy running the offence. He can STILL take the same amount of shots. He can still shoot 20-25 shots a game for all I care. Just get those shots in a better manner and within the flow of the offence more than he has. Because there are times when he has not done that on a consistent basis throughout the year.


"Does anyone really believe that this coaching staff, this management team, and the rest of the players here would suffer a chucker hi-jacking the offence?"
You can have guys who take shots that aren't great looks and have it happen. There are times when Nick has stated as much in press conferences. FVV himself has joked about not taking as long to begin executing plays (suggesting that he was dribbling the ball around for 20 seconds at times) FVV's words not mine. If you REALLY want I can go and grab the interviews and we can analyse it if you truly want although it was from the early part of the season.


So again I ask why is it so offensive and so wrong to suggest that he would be better in a different offensive role to maximize the strengths of this team? Samson Folk said it on the podcast at least 3 times throughout the year as well. Blake Murphy has suggested it at least once this year. There are quite a number of people who have spoken about this in passing just no one has really outlined HEY WHY DONT WE DO THIS in the media because that isn't how media and specifically our media works.

I'm not going against you or arguing with you, just stating why I think Fred is not a chucker. Trent certainly can be described as such more so than Fred. I'm not offended, and also believe Fred should play more off ball, and have expressed that sentiment earlier in the season. And when I did, some posters were like, he ain't curry and we ain't GSW (not you that I recall), as if only GSW can run players through screens for open catch and shoot opportunities.

[Primer]

Why would the Pacers do that. Lol
They have tons of SGs.

Yeah another team would have to get involved as well.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I'm not going against you or arguing with you, just stating why I think Fred is not a chucker. Trent certainly can be described as such more so than Fred. I'm not offended, and also believe Fred should play more off ball, and have expressed that sentiment earlier in the season. And when I did, some posters were like, he ain't curry and we ain't GSW (not you that I recall), as if only GSW can run players through screens for open catch and shoot opportunities.

Fair enough. I wasn't sure if you were talking to me so I wasgoing to obviously defend myself.

I do think sometimes we can all fall victim to hot takes or being passionate about the game and having that come out without fully thinking through or outlining our points. Ithink some do it more than others but either way.

Fred is a smart player so to me I think there is a chance he will see what we are seeing from the sidelines and much of this will be fixed in the off season or even by the time he comes back in the playoffs (optimistic about future rounds). As a point guard though and as a primary point guard ... I don't know if he is it. He isn't curry but he is very much klay like.


If you said that early in the season then you deserve the praise for that. I didn't say it likely as early as you or others but I have been fairly consistent with saying I think Siakam should have more ball handling duties and slowly give Scottie more responsibilities. Then Fred got injured and Scottie did his thing full time basically and it was glorious.

[Kagemusha]

Yeah another team would have to get involved as well.

I'd rather we get Brogdon from them.
or Haliburton

[TrueTorontoFan]

Yeah another team would have to get involved as well.

they are losing TJ Warren.

[Puffer]

Fred playing long minutes through the regular season and then playing hurt in the playoffs seems to be a theme with this team. I think this year has shown that there are other players that can take on some of the PG role and Fred should be moved essentially off ball. He has a tougher time against long, athletic teams, and should be used strategically. As a perimeter player who is healthy, he creates a ton of opportunity for the rest of the team, and I would like to see him minimize his drives to ones where he has a wind open path. He is too valuable to be hurt as often as he is so I would love to see his role change if that would eliminate some of the wear and tear.