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  • golden wrote: View Post

    Read closer... it's not clear.

    The tweet says "who hit catch & shoot 3's AND defend against the toughest matchups nightly..." The AND defend part implies success against those matchups.
    Why does it imply success? I can defend a player and do a bad job at it. There isn't another adjective to describe what I'm doing other than defend. When I played defense I am defending another basketball player.

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    • i read it the same way as primer which is why i made the comment about huerter (ie. atlanta had no one to guard perimeter players last year with hunter out so huerter got a lot of tough assignments, but just because he took on a lot of difficult matchups doesn't mean he was successful guarding them)

      and it was kind of an unfair comment because i know he's not a bad defender, but he's also not exactly a shut down guy either and i just thought it was funny for this graphic to imply he was one of the three best 3 and D guys in the league when he's clearly not.

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      • Wonder whether cap guys like mars or Dan can answer…

        What are the potential complications of not having worked out an extension yet with Fred, and why haven’t we?

        Do we think they haven’t come to terms cause it would complicate a KD trade if Fred were to be included? Does he become untradeable for a while?

        And what are the potential complications — like, it seemed as though he was maybe willing to take a pretty reasonable deal, (from early, pre-free agency reports.) …. If we wait too long, will his price go dramatically up?

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        • GOLDBLUM wrote: View Post
          Wonder whether cap guys like mars or Dan can answer…

          What are the potential complications of not having worked out an extension yet with Fred, and why haven’t we?

          Do we think they haven’t come to terms cause it would complicate a KD trade if Fred were to be included? Does he become untradeable for a while?

          And what are the potential complications — like, it seemed as though he was maybe willing to take a pretty reasonable deal, (from early, pre-free agency reports.) …. If we wait too long, will his price go dramatically up?
          I'm no genius here.. but from what I know..

          Fred's extension date is much later.. like right around when the season starts. So well after camp. There is no rush from the Raptor's side.

          The length and size of the extension matters. The NBA has an extend and trade option.. but the new contract can only be 3 years in length and we can only give 5% raises each year. Fred will likely want a 4 year extension with 8% raises (ie, max contract but based on his current salary).

          If Fred's camp wants the max, and we don't want to match that, then Fred still has his option for next season and can opt in or opt out and become a UFA. But we could trade him at any time through out the year.


          If Fred wants and gets a 4 year extension, he cannot be traded for 6 months.


          This is why Thad can be traded now. He signed an extension, but for only 2 years. So he can be extend and traded at any time.

          So the Raptors my wait until the last possible minute to keep their options open in case the KD fires start smoking hot again or something. There is no hurry from either side right now though.

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          • planetmars wrote: View Post

            I'm no genius here.. but from what I know..

            Fred's extension date is much later.. like right around when the season starts. So well after camp. There is no rush from the Raptor's side.

            The length and size of the extension matters. The NBA has an extend and trade option.. but the new contract can only be 3 years in length and we can only give 5% raises each year. Fred will likely want a 4 year extension with 8% raises (ie, max contract but based on his current salary).

            If Fred's camp wants the max, and we don't want to match that, then Fred still has his option for next season and can opt in or opt out and become a UFA. But we could trade him at any time through out the year.


            If Fred wants and gets a 4 year extension, he cannot be traded for 6 months.


            This is why Thad can be traded now. He signed an extension, but for only 2 years. So he can be extend and traded at any time.

            So the Raptors my wait until the last possible minute to keep their options open in case the KD fires start smoking hot again or something. There is no hurry from either side right now though.
            Pascal's extension date (in terms of the soonest it can be done) is the late one, I think Fred is eligible now. Though it is hard to map exactly how they are treating dates from the weird off-seasons of the COVID era. You are right that Fred has to sign the extension by the start of the season, as he has more than one season left on his deal (the player option counts, though they could also mutually agree to amend out the player option in conjunction with an in-season extension, so the deadline isn't really a real one, they could do an extension in-season if they wanted). Pascal really does have to do it this off-season or wait until next off-season, though, no player option there. He's very likely to wait anyway, he could be supermax eligible.

            Another consideration is if the Raps believe KD is going to stick until the deadline. In that case, if they wanted to have Fred extended to be used as a trade piece with term, they should try to get that done before we are 6 months prior to the deadline, which is coming up pretty quickly. That's also a consideration for the Nets - if they would want to extend Fred before FA, they would need to trade for him early enough that they can let the 6 months go by before July. That's a late December deadline but still, means a trade deadline deal with no extension in place leaves them dealing with UFA.

            You are right that Fred will want the 4 years and 8% raises, but the bigger factor in the non-extend-and-trade extension is the raise allowed. He can get a 20% raise from the last year of this deal (this year assuming he declines the option) in a regular extension, but in an extend-and-trade that's limited to 5% and leaves him at essentially the same salary scale instead of moving up towards the max salary range.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • chris wrote: View Post
              i read it the same way as primer which is why i made the comment about huerter (ie. atlanta had no one to guard perimeter players last year with hunter out so huerter got a lot of tough assignments, but just because he took on a lot of difficult matchups doesn't mean he was successful guarding them)

              and it was kind of an unfair comment because i know he's not a bad defender, but he's also not exactly a shut down guy either and i just thought it was funny for this graphic to imply he was one of the three best 3 and D guys in the league when he's clearly not.
              So without success, the graphic is close to meaningless. In the playoffs, the best scorers often hunt the worst defender, so that would be an extreme example of how limited this graphic is without context.

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              • golden wrote: View Post

                So without success, the graphic is close to meaningless. In the playoffs, the best scorers often hunt the worst defender, so that would be an extreme example of how limited this graphic is without context.
                oh i completely agree the graphic has pretty limited value and aaron rose is extrapolating a lot by calling FVV the best 3 and D player in the league in his twert

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                • Primer wrote: View Post

                  Why does it imply success? I can defend a player and do a bad job at it. There isn't another adjective to describe what I'm doing other than defend. When I played defense I am defending another basketball player.
                  Their placement determines their success as a 3 or shooter AND defender.
                  If you do a bad job defending then you'll be at the bottom of that graph.

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                  • Kagemusha wrote: View Post

                    Their placement determines their success as a 3 or shooter AND defender.
                    If you do a bad job defending then you'll be at the bottom of that graph.
                    Nah, it's 3 point success (adjusted for difficulty and volume) plotted against defensive usage. Defensive success isn't captured.

                    But there's an inherent "the NBA coach assigning you to defend these guys probably doesn't have anyone better" factor in there, so it's not a terrible proxy for defensive ability.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • Kagemusha wrote: View Post

                      Their placement determines their success as a 3 or shooter AND defender.
                      If you do a bad job defending then you'll be at the bottom of that graph.
                      The x axis is the difficulty of their defensive matchups. Not how well they defended them. So if you get assigned to defend the best offensive player on the other team every night you will be all the way to the right side of the graph. If you get the easiest defensive assignment every night you will be all the way on the left side of the graph.

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                      • Primer wrote: View Post

                        The x axis is the difficulty of their defensive matchups. Not how well they defended them. So if you get assigned to defend the best offensive player on the other team every night you will be all the way to the right side of the graph. If you get the easiest defensive assignment every night you will be all the way on the left side of the graph.
                        The weakest defender could also be hunted by the best offensive player on the other team (not assigned by the coach), so that's another point of context in this data, i.e., completely the opposite of what it implies.

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                        • golden wrote: View Post

                          The weakest defender could also be hunted by the best offensive player on the other team (not assigned by the coach), so that's another point of context in this data, i.e., completely the opposite of what it implies.
                          Yeah they could try with picks and screens to get switched onto a weaker defender but I think this analysis captures pretty well who gets the toughest defensive assignments on each team.

                          Keep in mind that guards and wings typically get the tougher assignment because the best offensive players are typically guards and wings.

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                          • Trade that bum lol.

                            Mamba Mentality

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                            • The Great One wrote: View Post
                              Trade that bum lol.

                              for KD yes

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                              • Mamba Mentality

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