Everything VanVleet

[Hotshot]

All that said the team is on a roll I dont mind sitting. Fred off the bench would be ideal. If we’re winning no one will complain. Its like seeing a whole new team on offence. Hope they keep it up. Go Raptors! Go Deaner!

Sit him down until the next home game on Sunday if fully healthy (back injuries are sneaky, they can come back to you if you rush things too soon even if you feel well). When you are on the roll on the road you don't want to mess things up. Usually when a team on the roll and starts playing differently because a high usage player comes back that's when you start getting losses as the changes impact the rhythm. Would like to see more increase usage for OPJ instead.

[G__Deane]

Fred has always been undervalued on the free agent market and I'm sure it would be the same in trade. Part of (not the only reason of course) why I'd be surprised if a Fred trade is in the near future.

Sure but since we're talking trade, the market sets his value so there's really no under or over. The market just may value Fred under what the Raptors feel he worth or worth to them. I also feel the Raps may just over value Freddy perhaps becuase he's been worth more to them

As Scotty emerges, he may just be worth a bit less even to them .... add me to the list that would like to see them at least try (convince) Fred off the bench or even switch it up against faster guards who torch him.

[Hotshot]

Sure but since we're talking trade, the market sets his value so there's really no under or over. The market just may value Fred under what the Raptors feel he worth or worth to them. I also feel the Raps may just over value Freddy perhaps becuase he's been worth more to them

As Scotty emerges, he may just be worth a bit less even to them .... add me to the list that would like to see them at least try (convince) Fred off the bench or even switch it up against faster guards who torch him.

I am willing to bet that OG is more valued by the Raptors than FVV right now in terms of including them in a trade package (hypothetically speaking) because how well OG is playing off Barnes and Siakam. It's like a 3 headed monster on offense/defense and the other team players are scrambling mad out there trying to find a weakness lol

[The Great One]

What I learned the last 2 games is that we don't have to play FVV 40 mins a game.

[DanH]

Sure but since we're talking trade, the market sets his value so there's really no under or over. The market just may value Fred under what the Raptors feel he worth or worth to them. I also feel the Raps may just over value Freddy perhaps becuase he's been worth more to them

As Scotty emerges, he may just be worth a bit less even to them .... add me to the list that would like to see them at least try (convince) Fred off the bench or even switch it up against faster guards who torch him.

So, no player has ever been overpaid or underpaid, is your position?

[DanH]

I am willing to bet that OG is more valued by the Raptors than FVV right now in terms of including them in a trade package (hypothetically speaking) because how well OG is playing off Barnes and Siakam. It's like a 3 headed monster on offense/defense and the other team players are scrambling mad out there trying to find a weakness lol

Oh, OG is definitely more valued by the Raps than FVV. I'm quite certain of their high profile pieces, the preferred trade pieces would be, in order from most willing to trade to would never trade: Gary, Fred, OG, Pascal, Scottie.

[Primer]

Maybe it wouldnt be enough for brooklyn but id rather trade fred and precious for someone. Koloko is still a roll of the dice but id roll it. Boucher and thad are adequate big backups. I just think trent with his growth in the next 5 years is worth keeping. Hes the only real gunner on the team. Whether his shot falls or not he’ll still take it next time hes a wild man - defense has to respect him. Type of guy you want in the playoffs

I'm just imagining KD replacing Gary in our starting lineup from the past 2 games and that's a very scary team. Gary playing awesome makes the trade a bit more realistic.

[The Claw Reborn]

Whats weird is all this freddy all star and metrics that show him elite player in the league so what would we get for him? Youd think a decent prospect and maybe a few first rounders for an all star right? But i dont get that feeling. Id be surprised if we could get one decent pick for him. I just sense theres no GM buzz for fred. Why is that? Whatever the offers its not gonna get better than it is right now

Thoae GMs are probably RR mainstays

Maybe it wouldnt be enough for brooklyn but id rather trade fred and precious for someone. Koloko is still a roll of the dice but id roll it. Boucher and thad are adequate big backups. I just think trent with his growth in the next 5 years is worth keeping. Hes the only real gunner on the team. Whether his shot falls or not he’ll still take it next time hes a wild man - defense has to respect him. Type of guy you want in the playoffs

All that said the team is on a roll I dont mind sitting. Fred off the bench would be ideal. If we’re winning no one will complain. Its like seeing a whole new team on offence. Hope they keep it up. Go Raptors! Go Deaner!

Sure but since we're talking trade, the market sets his value so there's really no under or over. The market just may value Fred under what the Raptors feel he worth or worth to them. I also feel the Raps may just over value Freddy perhaps becuase he's been worth more to them

As Scotty emerges, he may just be worth a bit less even to them .... add me to the list that would like to see them at least try (convince) Fred off the bench or even switch it up against faster guards who torch him.

great ideas and very engaging opinions from you three non kool-aid drinkers….always understands the bigger picture.

- no rush to trade him now but offering him a lesser role is the most prudent and immediate move for the betterment of the team, this would allow the coaching staff to control his minutes and maybe once in awhile revisit the load management program they have done effectively on Kawhi. (All along, it was not about pressing the panic button the first 3 games when I pointed out he was racking up minutes and once again in the top 5 in MPG….but more of a concern from his most strongest critique in this forum, looking after his well being, future trade value and if not traded, his viability in the playoffs when it matters most)

- bench role, former All Stars were more than willing to accept such role by sacrificing ego for the whole team

- that being said, if the first two don’t work, then trading him at the deadline is also another option. Maybe that KD scenario is a new scenario both sides would re-visit down the road. But I am more inclined in trading VanVleet plus Precious/ Birch for Lauri Markannen (25 years old) and a trade filler like Olynyk (is a serviceable big, no worse than Birch). I’m with Yuri, Trent, is still very young with a relatively unknown ceiling. To me, he has more upside than Precious.

Markannen is posting some All Star numbers, he may not be a former All Star like VanVleet but he is a very nice productive piece who would not mind coming off the bench to solidify the mob and allow Koloko to move to the starting role.

bottomline….It may just be a difficult negotiation with VanVleet’s agent in a contract year to move him out of the starting rotation but they don’t have that leverage and luxury to say no.

Common sense….I would choose Winning a game with minimal effort over winning a tight game but you worked your tail off to get there, totally dependent if those Hail Marys goes in or not.

[Hotshot]

Oh, OG is definitely more valued by the Raps than FVV. I'm quite certain of their high profile pieces, the preferred trade pieces would be, in order from most willing to trade to would never trade: Gary, Fred, OG, Pascal, Scottie.

Agreed but I think in this past summer FVV was a bit more valued and was of a less preferred trade piece than OG was. Now that we have a small sample of what is possibly to come with the way this team is executing things on the court, OG value just went up where FVV a more known and respected player stayed the same while being used in a lesser capacity (asked to do less and be more specialized).

[G__Deane]

What I learned the last 2 games is that we don't have to play FVV 40 mins a game.

About time

[G__Deane]

So, no player has ever been overpaid or underpaid, is your position?

Why do you try and put words in other's mouths to create an argument? Why not say "would you also say" if you want to create a 90 degree turn?

The discussion was value and value to a team(s) as it relates to a potential trade, nothing to do with pay.

Some guys are overvalued, some guys are undervalued. Usually has to do with how much of their game is individual scoring (which is always overvalued) and how much is defence (which is almost always undervalued).

There's a shit-ton more to value than just how much a player earns and it's not even linear in many cases.
I simply say that perhaps the Raptors value Fred more than other teams in a potential trade scenario and like valued what he brought this particular team's makeup in hte past. That value might even be slipping this season. Would you not agree that any player's value (in terms of a potential trade, which is after all, what we were idscussing) varies, perhaps even greatly among the 30 teams? man if you disagree with that, I don't know what to tell you.

What's not been discussed is how much Masai embraces loyalty and prides himself in it running both ways ie valuing or over valuing a guy who he's been in the trenches with or even drafted/traded for.

I wonder if you'll answer this? Are you in any way compensated for number of posts/arguments/discussions on this site? Because you often seem hell bent on creating volume where a vacuum existed. Or perhaps you just legitimately enjoy creating argumentative content. Have I asked you that before?

[DanH]

Agreed but I think in this past summer FVV was a bit more valued and was of a less preferred trade piece than OG was. Now that we have a small sample of what is possibly to come with the way this team is executing things on the court, OG value just went up where FVV a more known and respected player stayed the same while being used in a lesser capacity (asked to do less and be more specialized).

You might be right, but I suspect OG has been valued higher than FVV for basically his entire career. He's just the exact sort of player they want to build a team of.

[DanH]

Why do you try and put words in other's mouths to create an argument? Why not say "would you also say" if you want to create a 90 degree turn?

The discussion was value and value to a team(s) as it relates to a potential trade, nothing to do with pay.


There's a shit-ton more to value than just how much a player earns and it's not even linear in many cases.
I simply say that perhaps the Raptors value Fred more than other teams in a potential trade scenario and like valued what he brought this particular team's makeup in hte past. That value might even be slipping this season. Would you not agree that any player's value (in terms of a potential trade, which is after all, what we were idscussing) varies, perhaps even greatly among the 30 teams? man if you disagree with that, I don't know what to tell you.

What's not been discussed is how much Masai embraces loyalty and prides himself in it running both ways ie valuing or over valuing a guy who he's been in the trenches with or even drafted/traded for.

Where did I put words in your mouth? You were the one parroting the nonsense idea that since the market decides value, that's what his value is. "The market sets his value so there's really no under or over."

Players provide value on the court in terms of generating wins for their team. They are paid for (and valued by teams for) that win generation, and can be fairly paid (valued), underpaid (undervalued), or overpaid (overvalued) for that actual return on investment.

Fred has generally hit the free agent market and not gotten offers near what he has been worth, based on what contracts other players were able to get. Exactly why that is, is fair to debate. But he definitely didn't get his value on the market. Which is why I suspect a trade return for him would be below what a player of his calibre should fairly get, much like how his pay has traditionally been below what he is worth (I am similarly not super concerned about his theoretical max salary next summer because as ever I doubt the market is there to drive such a price point).

I wonder if you'll answer this? Are you in any way compensated for number of posts/arguments/discussions on this site? Because you often seem hell bent on creating volume where a vacuum existed. Or perhaps you just legitimately enjoy creating argumentative content. Have I asked you that before?

What a weird question. No, I just don't like silly posts and tend to call them out.

[G__Deane]

Where did I put words in your mouth? You were the one parroting the nonsense idea that since the market decides value, that's what his value is. "The market sets his value so there's really no under or over."

Players provide value on the court in terms of generating wins for their team. They are paid for (and valued by teams for) that win generation, and can be fairly paid (valued), underpaid (undervalued), or overpaid (overvalued) for that actual return on investment.

Fred has generally hit the free agent market and not gotten offers near what he has been worth, based on what contracts other players were able to get. Exactly why that is, is fair to debate. But he definitely didn't get his value on the market. Which is why I suspect a trade return for him would be below what a player of his calibre should fairly get, much like how his pay has traditionally been below what he is worth (I am similarly not super concerned about his theoretical max salary next summer because as ever I doubt the market is there to drive such a price point).



What a weird question. No, I just don't like silly posts and tend to call them out.

Where did you put words in my mouth??? I spelled it out exactly for you above.

We were discussing trade value and how teams might value a player differently for their team (which of course teams do every day) and you immediatly turned it around as
"So, no player has ever been overpaid or underpaid, is your position?"

Which wasn't even in the realm of the discusson because as I said, "value" encompasses so much more than pay scale.
I'm done with the back and forth since you're doing exactly what I guessed, just creating arguments out of nothing which created a logical "weird question". If you're not tasked with creating discord, then you are one of those guys that just enjoys arguing and creating non existent plots to do that. A form of trawling.

I'm not into that so I'm done with this discussion. Of course you'll respond

[DanH]

Where did you put words in my mouth??? I spelled it out exactly for you above.

We were discussing trade value and how teams might value a player differently for their team (which of course teams do every day) and you immediatly turned it around as
"So, no player has ever been overpaid or underpaid, is your position?"

Which wasn't even in the realm of the discusson because as I said, "value" encompasses so much more than pay scale.
I'm done with the back and forth since you're doing exactly what I guessed, just creating arguments out of nothing which created a logical "weird question". If you're not tasked with creating discord, then you are one of those guys that just enjoys arguing and creating non existent plots to do that. A form of trawling.

I'm not into that so I'm done with this discussion. Of course you'll respond

Or, and here's an idea, I just disagree with your posts on their merit. I'm sure that never crossed your mind.

Of course teams value players differently, both in terms of fit on their team and in terms of errors in their evaluation of a player's true value. That is true in trade as well as free agency, which is why assuming a player's value is aligned with their trade market is silly. Heck, trade markets can change just depending on what teams have what assets available to them and are going in which direction at the time of the trade. There's almost nothing more fluid.