Everything VanVleet

[golden]

Right, and Fred putting up league average efficiency, for THIS team, is a very good outcome.

Man, have expectations been lowered in the post-Lowry era, or what?

Blow it up.

[planetmars]

Come on man….you have to admit though that his body is failing him….watching him don a back brace on the bench resting is concerning….the one game great and 3-4 consecutive dismal games is a reflection of a player on a decline.

But let’s see what happens….I am one of the few who is hopeful that we change course.

I would rather find him a new destination in this present situation than attaching 110-120 million hefty contract then find a willing trade partner to give up young players and a future pick down the road.

He can heal. Injuries happen. Lowry went through stuff all the time and when he got healthy he was awesome. He's still only 28. I remember being 28. I wish I could go back to that time lol.

Whether you want him gone or not its up to management. I've said it before.. he's treated like a franchise player here. It's not a simple decision to move on. It might happen - I mean they traded DeMar. But it's not going to be an easy decision. And I really doubt it will be a deadline decision. If anything it would be in the summer.

[The Claw Reborn]

He can heal. Injuries happen. Lowry went through stuff all the time and when he got healthy he was awesome. He's still only 28. I remember being 28. I wish I could go back to that time lol.

Whether you want him gone or not its up to management. I've said it before.. he's treated like a franchise player here. It's not a simple decision to move on. It might happen - I mean they traded DeMar. But it's not going to be an easy decision. And I really doubt it will be a deadline decision. If anything it would be in the summer.

What do you mean he can heal up? that is a very broad statement. But we are both speculating if he is actually injured so what do we know….Donning a back brace however to alleviate a nagging a back issue is not good optic.

I agree, it’s up to management, Jan. 16 is the day when most players are available until Feb. 9

Me and a few others hoping we change course.

P.S. just for you to throw the name of Derozan in our discussion says a lot….kool-aid drinkers are not feeling good right now, me sensing it LOL

[golden]

He can heal. Injuries happen. Lowry went through stuff all the time and when he got healthy he was awesome. He's still only 28. I remember being 28. I wish I could go back to that time lol.

Whether you want him gone or not its up to management. I've said it before.. he's treated like a franchise player here. It's not a simple decision to move on. It might happen - I mean they traded DeMar. But it's not going to be an easy decision. And I really doubt it will be a deadline decision. If anything it would be in the summer.

Yep. You watch opposing team broadcasts and the commercials, quick NBA promos, etc… and it’s clear that Fred IS the face of the franchise. Should probably be Pascal, but Fred is our guy… maybe because he looks like Drake. Lol.

[slaw]

He can heal. Injuries happen. Lowry went through stuff all the time and when he got healthy he was awesome. He's still only 28. I remember being 28. I wish I could go back to that time lol.

Whether you want him gone or not its up to management. I've said it before.. he's treated like a franchise player here. It's not a simple decision to move on. It might happen - I mean they traded DeMar. But it's not going to be an easy decision. And I really doubt it will be a deadline decision. If anything it would be in the summer.

And Derozan got traded only after multiple seasons of hitting the wall as a team and, even then, only when a very unique opportunity presented itself.

Barring something at the deadline that blows Toronto away, I agree that they will let the offseason play out and if he wants to leave work out a sign and trade, otherwise, they will match offers or make their own and keep him. We have recent precedent (not exactly the same granted) in that they refused to move Lowry at the deadline unless they got the guy they wanted even though they knew he was gone to Miami in the offseason.

[saints91]

I don’t think the Raps should be paying Fred over that 114M mark… anything more is a overpay and that’s how you cap a teams ceiling. So ya, I’m in the trade Fred camp.

im also thinking this team has to pivot. Scottie and Pascal are my two keepers.

[G__Deane]

I don’t think the Raps should be paying Fred over that 114M mark… anything more is a overpay and that’s how you cap a teams ceiling. So ya, I’m in the trade Fred camp.

im also thinking this team has to pivot. Scottie and Pascal are my two keepers.

OG and Achiuwa and Koloko are staying too..Masai is building Team Africa right in front of us with Scottie being the token American.

[planetmars]

What do you mean he can heal up? that is a very broad statement. But we are both speculating if he is actually injured so what do we know….Donning a back brace however to alleviate a nagging a back issue is not good optic.

I agree, it’s up to management, Jan. 16 is the day when most players are available until Feb. 9

Me and a few others hoping we change course.

P.S. just for you to throw the name of Derozan in our discussion says a lot….kool-aid drinkers are not feeling good right now, me sensing it LOL

Why are you implying I want to keep Fred? I'm not really a fan of his.. and I sure wasn't a fan of DeMar's. But I also know how this front office operates. And I don't fantasize about things they might do that's against their own character.

I always consider Masai before I think about what the franchise will do. I'm not a GM of this team. If I was then I would have traded Fred when I was trying the 6'9 experiment. And I would not have traded Norm for Gary.

[The Claw Reborn]

Why are you implying I want to keep Fred? I'm not really a fan of his.. and I sure wasn't a fan of DeMar's. But I also know how this front office operates. And I don't fantasize about things they might do that's against their own character.

I always consider Masai before I think about what the franchise will do. I'm not a GM of this team. If I was then I would have traded Fred when I was trying the 6'9 experiment. And I would not have traded Norm for Gary.

Not implying whatsoever that you are, but it is good that you officially cleared the deck on where you stand on this..

the only difference is the timeline…you waiting in the offseason, while me between Jan. 16 and Feb. 9

so all good.

[DanH]

Its not fred is having a bad spell. Hes shooting poorly because hes playing off ball more. He admitted as much. Are you going to find shots you like with the ball in your hands 70% of the time or 40%?

Uhh, he's been more efficient off the ball for... let's see... his entire career.

[DanH]

Who is FVV's backup?

You think backup PG is the only hole in the roster? Who is OG's backup? Who is Pascal's? Who is Gary's? Have Boucher or Precious or Thad or Juancho been setting the world on fire this year?

Never mind that with our ignoring positions, a guy like Boucher will sub in for Fred as often as Flynn does. In actuality, the most used non-starters in lineups with no Fred:

Koloko lineup (65 minutes)
Flynn lineup (26 minutes)
Boucher lineup (23 minutes)

[DanH]

Man, have expectations been lowered in the post-Lowry era, or what?

Blow it up.

Expectations? No. Context has changed, sure. My entire point was that Fred has had a few perfectly fine shooting nights of late and FG% was a bad way to evaluate him. Don't think he needs to be putting up his peak efficiency for that to be true.

[slaw]

You think backup PG is the only hole in the roster? Who is OG's backup? Who is Pascal's? Who is Gary's? Have Boucher or Precious or Thad or Juancho been setting the world on fire this year?

Never mind that with our ignoring positions, a guy like Boucher will sub in for Fred as often as Flynn does. In actuality, the most used non-starters in lineups with no Fred:

Koloko lineup (65 minutes)
Flynn lineup (26 minutes)
Boucher lineup (23 minutes)

Who is Fred's backup?

[iblastoff]

What's that like an 8 second sampling?

nope. its for lineups that have played at least 20 minutes or more together.

[DanH]

Who is Fred's backup?

How do you define a backup?

When Fred is off the court, his function (secondary creator, shooter) is most often filled by Pascal, Scottie or Gary.

When Fred subs off the court, the most frequent substitution for him is not Flynn, but a big or wing (Koloko, Boucher, Precious when he's been available).

If we look at how much of their time each player plays without Fred, this is what we get:

Malachi plays only 30% of his minutes with Fred. But his non-Fred minutes cover less than 40% of Fred's rest minutes. Is that a backup?

Boucher plays only 40% of his minutes with Fred, and his non-Fred minutes cover 60% of Fred's rest minutes. So Boucher is in when Fred is not about 50% more often than Flynn is.

The answer you are looking for, of course, is Malachi Flynn. But it's wrong.