Everything VanVleet

[slaw]

Still no proper back up for Fred. I was really hoping they would have tried to get Rubio or Patty Mills in the offseason. They doubled down on more forwards with the idea of Pascal and Scottie being the back up's for Fred with guys like Juancho, Porter and Thad back filling for Scottie and Pascal during those minutes. Not a good idea. Fred may not be a true PG, but there is a big drop off between him and Scottie/Pascal in that skill set.

See, Dan, was that so hard? The reason why Fred is so important to this team is that they can't backfill him. If he struggles for an extended period of time, it has an enormous impact because there's just no way to compensate for it. The other big 4 are already taxed out in their own roles (Barnes playing 1-5, Siakam doing his Doncic impersonation, OG defending the best player and needing 20 every night, Trent needing to bail them out and carry all the bystanders) can't possibly pick up Fred's outsized job as well.

If Pascal or OG go down Raps at least have other competent forwards they can utilize. You can't replace those guys but you can at least throw out actual NBA players like Boucher/Achiuwa/Young/Koloko. If Trent goes down you can move his scoring around even though it's not the same. But if Fred goes down or doesn't play good, well, you're just fucked.

[Primer]

Still no proper back up for Fred. I was really hoping they would have tried to get Rubio or Patty Mills in the offseason. They doubled down on more forwards with the idea of Pascal and Scottie being the back up's for Fred with guys like Juancho, Porter and Thad back filling for Scottie and Pascal during those minutes. Not a good idea. Fred may not be a true PG, but there is a big drop off between him and Scottie/Pascal in that skill set.

We tried to get Brogdon, he chose Boston. Thems the breaks being in Toronto.

[Primer]

See, Dan, was that so hard? The reason why Fred is so important to this team is that they can't backfill him. If he struggles for an extended period of time, it has an enormous impact because there's just no way to compensate for it. The other big 4 are already taxed out in their own roles (Barnes playing 1-5, Siakam doing his Doncic impersonation, OG defending the best player and needing 20 every night, Trent needing to bail them out and carry all the bystanders) can't possibly pick up Fred's outsized job as well.

If Pascal or OG go down Raps at least have other competent forwards they can utilize. You can't replace those guys but you can at least throw out actual NBA players like Boucher/Achiuwa/Young/Koloko. If Trent goes down you can move his scoring around even though it's not the same. But if Fred goes down or doesn't play good, well, you're just fucked.

Fact is you can't win with your second best player playing like dog shit. That applies to every NBA team. Fred is playing like dog shit so we suck.

[golden]

See, Dan, was that so hard? The reason why Fred is so important to this team is that they can't backfill him. If he struggles for an extended period of time, it has an enormous impact because there's just no way to compensate for it. The other big 4 are already taxed out in their own roles (Barnes playing 1-5, Siakam doing his Doncic impersonation, OG defending the best player and needing 20 every night, Trent needing to bail them out and carry all the bystanders) can't possibly pick up Fred's outsized job as well.

If Pascal or OG go down Raps at least have other competent forwards they can utilize. You can't replace those guys but you can at least throw out actual NBA players like Boucher/Achiuwa/Young/Koloko. If Trent goes down you can move his scoring around even though it's not the same. But if Fred goes down or doesn't play good, well, you're just fucked.

That's one factor as to why Fred's impact stats look good, which a poster asked earlier. Kind of like when Patrick Patterson looked like an advanced stats superstar, because the guy who usually replaced him was washed Luis Scola. When we got Ibaka, 2Pat's impact stats dropped off considerably.

Just goes to show how badly this team needs real PG skills... both in the starting lineup and as at the backup PG spot. Having Fred (a combo guard) and our PFs trying to be pseudo PGs looks like a failed experiment in position-less basketball.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Right, and Fred putting up league average efficiency, for THIS team, is a very good outcome.

not sure what it is this year in terms of TS efficiency league wide but he is shooting 52.5% currently per basketball reference


League's current eFG is .541 vs Fred's which is .467. That is significant. if he was putting up league average efficiency it would be a better outcome than what we are seeing now. Good? I dont know.

Fred has done well in the past this year he is struggling. This isn't me trying to kick someone while they are down or hating on him just an observation.

[TrueTorontoFan]

He can heal. Injuries happen. Lowry went through stuff all the time and when he got healthy he was awesome. He's still only 28. I remember being 28. I wish I could go back to that time lol.

Whether you want him gone or not its up to management. I've said it before.. he's treated like a franchise player here. It's not a simple decision to move on. It might happen - I mean they traded DeMar. But it's not going to be an easy decision. And I really doubt it will be a deadline decision. If anything it would be in the summer.

he can hypothetically but the way he is being used isn't helping with that. and stop comparing him to lowry

[slaw]

That's one factor as to why Fred's impact stats look good, which a poster asked earlier. Kind of like when Patrick Patterson looked like an advanced stats superstar, because the guy who usually replaced him was washed Luis Scola. When we got Ibaka, 2Pat's impact stats dropped off considerably.

Just goes to show how badly this team needs real PG skills... both in the starting lineup and as at the backup PG spot. Having Fred (a combo guard) and our PFs trying to be pseudo PGs looks like a failed experiment in position-less basketball.

Your first graph is why a certain poster spent a thousand words yesterday not answering a simple question with the obvious answer.

And it's not like the front office doesn't know this cause they tried to fix it this past offseason and couldn't get it done.

[LJ2]

See, Dan, was that so hard? The reason why Fred is so important to this team is that they can't backfill him. If he struggles for an extended period of time, it has an enormous impact because there's just no way to compensate for it. The other big 4 are already taxed out in their own roles (Barnes playing 1-5, Siakam doing his Doncic impersonation, OG defending the best player and needing 20 every night, Trent needing to bail them out and carry all the bystanders) can't possibly pick up Fred's outsized job as well.

If Pascal or OG go down Raps at least have other competent forwards they can utilize. You can't replace those guys but you can at least throw out actual NBA players like Boucher/Achiuwa/Young/Koloko. If Trent goes down you can move his scoring around even though it's not the same. But if Fred goes down or doesn't play good, well, you're just fucked.

Yeah, it's not quite the days of Casey's 3 guard line-up's.

[TrueTorontoFan]

How do you define a backup?

When Fred is off the court, his function (secondary creator, shooter) is most often filled by Pascal, Scottie or Gary.

When Fred subs off the court, the most frequent substitution for him is not Flynn, but a big or wing (Koloko, Boucher, Precious when he's been available).

If we look at how much of their time each player plays without Fred, this is what we get:

Malachi plays only 30% of his minutes with Fred. But his non-Fred minutes cover less than 40% of Fred's rest minutes. Is that a backup?

Boucher plays only 40% of his minutes with Fred, and his non-Fred minutes cover 60% of Fred's rest minutes. So Boucher is in when Fred is not about 50% more often than Flynn is.

The answer you are looking for, of course, is Malachi Flynn. But it's wrong.

i think it was a rhetorical question we dont have a true back up pointguard or true offensive initiator

[TrueTorontoFan]

I'm curious what you guys think of Fred's impact on this team. With Pascal having another All NBA season, OG a career year with talks of DPOY, Trent playing as well as he did last season, but it still hasn't resulted in the type of wins most expected. Seemingly, Fred playing poorly has a bigger impact on wins and loses than when Pascal, OG or Trent play poorly.

Last season with Pascal out and OG got injured early, a healthy Fred was the consistent presence that was able to keep this team afloat. I just wonder if he does more than what we see or give him credit for and is closer to providing the type of impact on wins/loses that Lowry did.

there is a ton of context missing which accounts for those wins... look at how those teams were doing relative to us last year. defensively we were a lot more locked in... although to be fair we were not thriving with og and pascal out it wasn't until those two were in the line up that we really took off so there is that.


Fred's spacing is missed and helps out a lot especially in the right role he is very impactful. When he is put in places (by himself or by nurse) where he is taking on more usage it hurts the team. This is why fred scoring 38 points or what ever doesn't result in wins.

[Yuri Gagarin]

Barnes just needs time in the pg role. Slow burn boys slow burn. This team isnt ready yet. We need retool and patience.

GS went to the bottom for like 18 months and came back and won it all

[planetmars]

he can hypothetically but the way he is being used isn't helping with that. and stop comparing him to lowry

I'm comparing him to an oft injured player that got healthy and played well.. not specifically Lowry.

Are you suggesting that Fred will never get healthy and never regain his shooting form? I wouldn't personally take that bet. Like I said in the post you quoted.. he's only 28.

Also just because this season is lost.. doesn't mean he'll play like that next season. Each season can be different.

[G__Deane]

Barnes just needs time in the pg role. Slow burn boys slow burn. This team isnt ready yet. We need retool and patience.

GS went to the bottom for like 18 months and came back and won it all

Was that the year that Curry and Klay missed most of the year. Who did they fraft with superstars on the sideline?
That's another way to do it rather than actually tank.

[planetmars]

Was that the year that Curry and Klay missed most of the year. Who did they fraft with superstars on the sideline?
That's another way to do it rather than actually tank.

They got Wiseman the one year.. and then Kuminga and Moody the next year. One of those picks was from Minnesota via the Wiggins/D'Angelo trade though. I think that was Kuminga.

[Yuri Gagarin]

I'm comparing him to an oft injured player that got healthy and played well.. not specifically Lowry.

Are you suggesting that Fred will never get healthy and never regain his shooting form? I wouldn't personally take that bet. Like I said in the post you quoted.. he's only 28.

Also just because this season is lost.. doesn't mean he'll play like that next season. Each season can be different.

But IF healthy history of nba players i think shows 26-29 better stats than 29-32 no?

i think the average nba tenure is actually just under 6 years in the league. Im not sure how much juice you guys expect to keep squeezing out of fred. Injuries increase with age not lessen. Sure maybe but realistically...

21/22 hip hip groin knee back groin hip back back